The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

[Vixen]

I read The Hole. It's garbage. Wilson cites to Anders Björkmann as his only source for the claim that the ship sank in a suspicious manner, then spins a bad spy novel to try to explain it. Pure conspiratorial twaddle.


You told us that you didn't think the captain had been shot.

Post in thread 'The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII'

Feb 16, 2024

Please answer my question. Are you renewing your claim that the captain of MS Estonia was murdered?



You keep repeating the same insinuations and suggesting we should address them. That's a claim.



Do you still believe and/or argue that there is credible evidence he was murdered? I'm asking a very simple question.

I have never claimed the Captain was murdered as I have no idea what happened to him.

Yes, I think it is quite pertinent to ask, what happened to the Captain?

My opinion isn't relevant but if you insist: IMV it seems highly unlikely the captain was murdered...

• Vixen

Now you're telling us we have to believe the Finns because they're Finns, and the captain really must have been shot. Your critics lose patience having to deal with your constant changes of mind and heart.

I said nothing of the sort. I said if this is what two Finnish armed forces personnel reported as their observations form underwater footage, then it is not from a random nutter behind a keyboard, but from authorised personnel reporting their trained observations, not a scoop-hungry hack looking for a story or some PR guy trying to 'play it down'. I haven't made any judgement as to whether it is true or false, other than it would be a credible observation if notified by authorised personnel in their capacity as surveyors of a scene,

 

[Vixen]

Here we go again. Show me where I posted *anything* mocking Gregg Bemis. You really are very bad at reading comprehension if you think that my merely mentioning his name is mocking him. Please identify the post where I mocked him or admit your error and take it back/.

Also, how does being an expert on the rules of sailing racing have anything to do with being able to identify "submarine tracks" as being caused by a submarine with wheels?


I never mocked Bemis or Braidwood. Quote the post where I mocked Bemis. Do that or please retract your false accusation that I mocked him, your intellectual dishonesty when you falsely accuse others like me of this kind of thing is shameful.

So what did you mean by 'grins and giggles' when you mocked:

And just for grins and giggles, while searching for some old posts on this topic, I found a post of Vixen's where she said that Jutta Rabe found submarine tracks on the Baltic seafloor which she and someone called "Greg Bemiss" identified as being caused by submarine wheels

 

[Vixen]

Are you claiming that SS officers were stationed on German warships whose job it was to murder any officer that abandoned a sinking ship? Or that they'd go shoot their family back in Germany if they did... or that wives and kids were on board? And that because of this completely made up anecdote or whatever, it implies a car ferry captain in the 1990's shot himself in the head because he had Russian naval training?! Have you any idea how little logical sense that makes

The German Third Reich had these 'happy kraft' ships for families, so yeah, these would occasionally get torpedoed by sneaky Soviets giving them a bit of their own medicine.

 

[Vixen]

Yes you do. When you say the following:

Then people are going to reasonably think that you used to be a psychologist but are no longer.

Yes or no, were you once a bona fide psychologist?

If your vocation is a psychologist then you are free to call yourself that as there is no law against it.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

... I said if this is what two Finnish armed forces personnel reported ...

If.

But do note that you're not quoting what two Finnish servicemen said. You're saying Drew Wilson said that Andi Meister said that Lopetamatta logiraamat said that Jutta Rabe said that two Finnish armed forces guys said etc. etc.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

So what did you mean by 'grins and giggles' when you mocked:

That doesn't look like mockery of Bemis to me.

 

[JayUtah]

I haven't made any judgement as to whether it is true or false, other than it would be a credible observation if notified by authorised personnel in their capacity as surveyors of a scene,

Equivocation. Either you believe them or you don't.

 

[JayUtah]

So what did you mean by 'grins and giggles' when you mocked:

Doing something for "grins and giggles" means to do it on a whim. It doesn't mean you're mocking the thing you did. Unlike your attempts to invent new colloquialisms to excuse your malapropisms, this one actually has an accepted, common meaning.

 

[JayUtah]

I said if this is what two Finnish armed forces personnel reported as their observations form underwater footage, then it is not from a random nutter behind a keyboard, but from authorised personnel reporting their trained observations, not a scoop-hungry hack looking for a story or some PR guy trying to 'play it down'.

Except, as noted, you don't have a primary source for it. You have a fourth-hand anonymous tale, with at least some of the intervening authors and interpreters having questionable reliability. If you assure us that in your view it's highly unlikely that the captain was shot, why are you suddenly giving this obviously unreliable account any breathing room?

 

[Vixen]

If.

But do note that you're not quoting what two Finnish servicemen said. You're saying Drew Wilson said that Andi Meister said that Lopetamatta logiraamat said that Jutta Rabe said that two Finnish armed forces guys said etc. etc.

Be that as it may, he was head of the JAIC - which consisted of a panel set up to investigate - on behalf of three countries, Estonia, Sweden and Finland, so it can't just be brushed off as 'fake news'.

 

[Vixen]

That doesn't look like mockery of Bemis to me.

The poster clearly thought Bemis was some kind of crank.

 

[Vixen]

Except, as noted, you don't have a primary source for it. You have a fourth-hand anonymous tale, with at least some of the intervening authors and interpreters having questionable reliability. If you assure us that in your view it's highly unlikely that the captain was shot, why are you suddenly giving this obviously unreliable account any breathing room?

A poster named EHocking and ReformedOfflian brought up the subject. I was trying to be helpful.

 

[Steve]

Well this was information beaten out of me by the 'playground bullies' and, true to form, they now hold it against me! You will never win when Flashman steps in your path.

Nobody "beat" anything. You chose your words "carefully", and by doing so once again demonstrated that your claims of knowledge on anything to do with this topic are laughable.

 

[lobosrul5]

The German Third Reich had these 'happy kraft' ships for families, so yeah, these would occasionally get torpedoed by sneaky Soviets giving them a bit of their own medicine.

I have never heard the term 'happy kraft', and Google is not helping me. You are referring to the naval evacuation of Prussia in 1945 I presume. That has so little to do with the sinking of the Estonia that it beggars belief that you brought it up.

ETA: BTW the Wilhelm Gustloff is yet another example of a ship dramatically listing, and sinking but not capsizing.

 

[Vixen]

We get to question the basis by which you define yourself if that definition becomes a premise to an argument you are making.


When you present yourself as having certain qualifications that you then expect others to respect when evaluating your judgments and assertions, the validity of those qualifications is in fact the only thing that's relevant.

If you claim to be a scientist, and on that basis claim competent authority to assert scientific claims pertaining to your arguments, the precise nature of your science education and practice will be tested. It should be tested, because you made it a premise to the argument. "I know what I'm talking about," is a premise to every single statement you make. Your constant attempts to squelch that examination—"End of discussion," "Discussion over"—indicates that you really do understand how very uninformed you are on these subjects.

No I haven't 'presented' myself at all. I was browbeaten into 'explaining' how dare I be interested in a shipping accident and made to reveal my level of scientific training, which of course would never be enough for you, and then told I was 'bolstering' myself when I helpfully explained. The Estonia isn't just a mechanical accident, it also involves people.

 

[JayUtah]

A poster named EHocking and ReformedOfflian brought up the subject. I was trying to be helpful.

Yes, you were asked to cite the sources for your claim. You're not just "being helpful." You're offering commentary on the reliability of the source that is contradicted by its nature. And your evaluation of the claim you hope to support from that source differs from what you said earlier. Are you able to rehabilitate your source, or shall we properly dismiss it? Are you able to reconcile your different views on the theory that the captain was shot, or shall we just assume you're flitting about as usual?

 

[Vixen]

Nobody "beat" anything. You chose your words "carefully", and by doing so once again demonstrated that your claims of knowledge on anything to do with this topic are laughable.

The context of when I said I chose words carefully was when a couple of posters claimed I meant 'suspicious' when I said 'strange'. In future, please quote me in context, a courtesy you would surely expect for yourself.

 

[JesseCuster]

So what did you mean by 'grins and giggles' when you mocked:

And just for grins and giggles, while searching for some old posts on this topic, I found a post of Vixen's where she said that Jutta Rabe found submarine tracks on the Baltic seafloor which she and someone called "Greg Bemiss" identified as being caused by submarine wheels

I didn't mock Bemis here, just mentioned his (misspelled) name in passing, because I had no clue who he was, even a Google search didn't turn up anything, because despite your continual claims of being deliberate and precise in your posts, you got both his first name and surname wrong.

If you wish to interpret that as mocking, then *you* were the subject of my mocking, not Bemiss. I think the idea of wheeled submarines crawling on the floor of the Baltic having something to do with the sinking of the Estonia is funny.

Even if I *was* mocking him, why would the fact that he knows a lot about the rules of sailing exempt him from being mocked? No-one cares about his sailing knowledge (apart from you for whatever reason) as its entirely irrelevant to the discussion.

Also, how does owning a 100 year old shipwreck make him any good at identifying the tracks left by something as esoteric as the alleged wheeled submarines?

 

[JayUtah]

I was browbeaten into 'explaining' how dare I be interested in a shipping accident...

No. You were not just expressing "interest." You were endorsing the physics argument made by a professor under the premise that you were competent to do so, and that the argument properly cast scientific doubt on the prevailing narrative.

...and made to reveal my level of scientific training...

You were properly asked on what basis you thought you were compete to evaluate the validity of a physics theory challenging the conventional story. You initially avoided answering the question. The reason for that became clear when it was evident you could not display any degree of competence in physics despite your claims to have been trained in it for years.

The Estonia isn't just a mechanical accident, it also involves people.

Regardless, you seem to believe you are competent to challenge the mechanical aspects of it when you clearly are not.

 

[Vixen]

I have never heard the term 'happy kraft', and Google is not helping me. You are referring to the naval evacuation of Prussia in 1945 I presume. That has so little to do with the sinking of the Estonia that it beggars belief that you brought it up.

The context was the Captain of Estonia was reported to have been observed with a 'shot to the head' by some armed force personnel (as you know, various teams of naval divers went down to survey the scene to report back as to the feasibility of recovering the body and a general survey of the scene). A poster interpreted that to mean 'an assassin of the captain'. It was at that point, I opined it could just as easily have been suicide as that was a WWII thing, and citing the SS Wilhelm Gustloff eyewitnesses of this phenomenon.