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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

BTW you'll notice, the split seconds breakdown is relevant in your example because the adjudicators need to know exactly who came where in what position and to have the most precise record of local, national and world record, plus the athlete themself will be obsessed by these nano-seconds, But in a discussion forum it really is not relevant to include all of that; it is perfectly ok to refer to Bannister's four-minute mile. If ever we get the breakdown of how fast the ship sank to the nearest second, then yeah, it becomes a relevant parameter.
As I explained to you when you claimed that "technical drawing experts" could measure a bloody footprint on a cotton bathmat to the "smallest nano-millimetre (sic)", the prefix "nano-" means one billionth. So why do you keep misusing it?
 
Post-mortems are carried out by a public coroner. The whole point of of
carrying out a post-mortem in an accidental death is in the interests of justice. Given Andresson had literally just come on duty (1:00am) and the 'bang' or 'collision' sensation was heard about the same time, one would have thought determining the cause of the Captain's death (if by heart attack there would be no water in his lungs) then that would be in the public interest to know a possible contributing cause for the loss of comtrol of the vessel. Given the extraordinary lengths to retrieve Capt. Piht's briefcase, which was in Voronin's designated room, it would appear they decided early on their aim was Piht, so they didn't care about whatever was going on at the bridge.
The point of a post mortem is to decide whether or not it is an accidental death.
 
My parameters were hours and minutes. No ship ever sunk in seconds, not even the Lusitania. If you are still unsure, consider the old duodecimal system of £, s. d ~vs~ the current decimal one. Reflect on whether anyone still uses the old notation and ask yourself why not. Think about the logic of using parameters that have no relevance.
HMS Hood?
 
I once came across a bloke (a mate of a mate), self-declared "conspiracy reasercher" - so not a conspiracy theorist! On one of his YouTube vidoes he filmed himself with an Alex Jones book, saying, and I paraphrase, "See, Alex Jones actually did say 'XYZ'." It's never occured to my mate that what was being questioned was the truth behind what Alex Jones said, not whether or not Alex Jones actually said something or other.
 
Vixen (not really picking on you, Vixen) said a while ago that debate is the way to determine this sort of stuff.

Well, yes debate, it's great to decide whether of not "kids, shall we go to the zoo or to the cimema, today?" or "ought we permit abortion?" or "what rate for this particular tax?"

Debate is a bit useless - so are courts - when it comes to matters of fact: "This court has determined that Gerald Geoffrey the giraffe is present at the zoo" or OJ killed someone.

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This house believes..
 
Indeed, this is supposedly the hijacker who shot the captain according to one of the more outrageous conspiracy theories. Although Vixen supposedly no longer believes that the captain was shot, I guess we still have to listen to the residual speculation over and over again. Just as it was suspicious strange curious that the captain's body wasn't recovered to make sure he wasn't shot in the head, had a heart attack, or suffered from debilitating constipation that doomed the ship, it remains suspicious strange curious that the official investigation didn't chase down the story of the "unauthorized" corpse on the bridge—according to all those wannabe investigators from their comfy armchairs.

But Vixen says variously, "I never made any claim to expertise." (Granted she does sometimes, but this remains her anchor position.) But this seems true only because she doesn't actually state all her assumptions. See, every allegation of fact—especially those that involve specialized knowledge or understanding—comes with the tacit assumption, "I know what I'm talking about." That's why one of the most powerful questions you can ever ask in a debate is, "How do you know that?"

When a claimant says something like, "A ship can't float on its 'superstructure,'" there's a tacit assumption for how that knowledge was validated. Perhaps the claimant came by the statement from a secondary source she trusts. Or she may have concluded it from her own understanding, recollection, or assumption. But all roads eventually lead to the claimant needing to know what she's talking about, either to vet her sources and their claims, or to elucidate the reasoning behind original conclusions. The answer to, "How do you know that?" will ultimately have an answer that implicate's the claimant's own competence. It simply can't be ignored. So things like, "I never claimed to be a physicist," are straw men. As soon as the claimant makes an argument sounding in physics, some competence in physics has been asserted as a tacit premise—a tacit assumption.

Similarly if someone says that high explosives produce high temperatures, and that therefore metal objects subjected to them should exhibit evidence consistent with high temperature, that necessarily implicates a claim of enough expertise in explosives and metallurgy to make that statement. The unstated assumption is always, "...and I know what I'm talking about." You don't get to say later, "I never claimed to be a metallurgy expert," or "I never claimed to be an explosives expert." Some profession of competence is necessarily implied in the claim and cannot simply be ignored.

Among armchair detectives, the answer to, "How do you know that?" too often comes out as, "It's common knowledge," or vague allusions to "the laws of physics" without further detail. And then sometimes you get a comically inept expression of how the physics is supposed to work, but at least it's an attempt.

Of course the basic rationale of modern science and the whole point of expertise in general is that what people think they know commonly is often wrong. Experts are experts quite often because they have knowledge that uninformed intuition or poorly reasoned speculation can't correctly supply. Experts have experience that incorporates knowledge that can't easily be obtained any other way. Knowing how to investigate something correctly often requires investigating things as a novice, making mistakes, and being corrected by your mentors until you learn the art of avoiding the mistakes. But since the value of expertise is in correcting the mistakes that come from poor recollection, uninformed intuition, and other insufficient sources, armchair detectives have to be constantly amenable to correction if they want to have any sort of credibility. Insisting that their "common sense" or poorly-recalled O-levels should still trump the judgement and knowledge of experts who can explain their error is simply bad faith. The assumption, "...and I know what I'm talking about," becomes a failed premise.

Sadly, armchair detectives are gonna armchair. But after their ignorance is exposed, it devolves to pure rhetoric trying to sidestep, defuse, or paint over that exposition. Then we start to see the straw men. "You don't need a degree in physics to discuss the sinking of a ship," or "I just want to discuss current affairs," etc. Well, if you're making claims that amount to conclusions drawn from allegations of complex physical behavior, then you just might need such a degree (or its equivalent). If you're going to say that the science of roll stability (metastable height etc.) means a ship must inevitably "turn turtle," you will simply need to be able to talk about that science without getting hopelessly befuddled over the simple elements of the theory, such as points and vectors. You can't botch those badly, confuse it all with buoyancy, and still pretend that you've presented a good-faith argument.

And you don't get to say that you just want to have a "discussion" or a "polite debate" or jabber about "current events" when you are quite patently challenging your betters. Accusing people of smuggling dangerous isotopes, of hijack and murder, or of coverup, dereliction, or incompetence in investigation is not just idle curiosity. You are more responsible for knowing what you're talking about when you hurl those accusations. Sadly so much of Vixen's schtick is to make a claim or argument and then bald-facedly deny the essential nature of the claim."It's not a conspiracy theory!" even when it very patently is. Again, bad-faith arguments that deserve no further attention except perhaps as fodder for bored skeptics.

It all comes down to trying to walk the fine line between claiming to be the smartest person in the room and also not having to demonstrate any actual smartness. The claimant is somehow smarter than 99.9% of humanity, but also somehow her critics are on the hook to indulge her failed memory and her numerous "syntax" problems and "typos." Holding her to high standards of "triple-niner" performance is somehow mean-spirited heckling. She doesn't have time for the petty stuff like actually learning vector analysis or what ″ actually indicates. How dare anyone suggest she's not smart enough to question experts from her postgraduate armchair and declare "Discussion over!" as soon as she's backed into a corner!
The claim of the Captain shot dead comes from Andi Meister's book 1997 Lopetamata Logiraamat (Unfinished logbook). You might want to brush it off as an 'outrageous conspiracy theory' and that you're Andi Meister's 'better'. But Andi Miester was actually the Head of the JAIC investigating committee at one point. He had access to ALL the witness statements and documentation. Do you consider yourself his 'better', by your own account? (This is a dialectical question and not an accusation, for the avoidance of doubt).

As for your profiling, you appear to have missed your vocation as a psychologist, but I am afraid you are miles out. Let me explain. Some of us have core values that we live by. When a person has values, no amount of bullying, jeering or force can make them change those values (is the hope). So whilst people whose views come from newspapers and their peers, sure, you can give them a telling off, force them to adopt your view and even threaten banishment from the peer group. But this doesn't work with those of us who can't be forced to agree, when we do not. As my core values include integrity, honesty and authenticity, I can see what people are doing when they spread smear campaigns claiming the opposite. My good friend founded an anti-bullying charity and roped me in to help set it up, after she was driven to a suicide attempt and a severe nervous breakdown, so I met many people like her in setting out couselling sessions. And do you know what struck me? These were incredibly talented and remarkably gifted in many ways that would be a great asset to any organisation, yet were persecuted and brought down by a jealous peer or peers, So the point being made here is that I can spot bullying tactics from ten paces and it doesn't work on me. For the avoidance of doubt I am not saying you are one such person but you seem to be puzzled as to why I haven't fallen to my knees in remorse about being 'told off'. Here's your answer, I have core values of integrity, which includes not pretending to agree with something I do not agree with and not pretending I think something is wrong when I do not think it is wrong. This is the core value of authenticity, which isn't always possible but one tries.
 
So was it red jacket, a red suit or a brown suit? Accounts, depending on source, vary.

You should have looked it up. Perhaps you actually meant the Rockwater Report?

Since the body is unidentified, this is merely your bald assertion that the person was “officially unauthorised”. Trying to spark another one of your wild conspiracy theories as to who this person was, is I guess , the only reason for phrasing this observation in the manner in which you do.
The perception of colour would be in the eye of the beholder, cones at the back of the eye, the quality of lighting, film or photo developing, etcetera. Red can be perceived as brown (russet), orange or even black. Sorry, yes, the Rockwater Report (I never was good at names). Not a 'wild conspiracy theory' it is based on an actual eye-witness account, who of course might be mistaken, but nonetheless, is not a made up one.
 
As I explained to you when you claimed that "technical drawing experts" could measure a bloody footprint on a cotton bathmat to the "smallest nano-millimetre (sic)", the prefix "nano-" means one billionth. So why do you keep misusing it?
I did tell you at the time the term "smallest nano-millimetre' was a common Brit colloquialism to convey the most tiny of tiny tiny. I thought it was obvious but never mind. It's used in conversation (sad, I know).
 
I did tell you at the time the term "smallest nano-millimetre' was a common Brit colloquialism to convey the most tiny of tiny tiny. I thought it was obvious but never mind. It's used in conversation (sad, I know).

I'm British, and I've never ever in my entire life heard anyone refer to "smallest nano-millimetre".

On top of which, it makes literally no sense. It's as stupid as saying "largest centi-kilometre".
 

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