Rolfe
Adult human female
The fact that male people simply cannot be trusted to obey the law is causing a lot of trouble.
Transwomen are not Women - Part 15
- Thread starter d4m10n
- Start date
angrysoba
Philosophile
I’ve heard that Scottish girls have to resort to this to use the ladies…
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
Nope. My critique of current U.S. federal policy was that people who look like guys will be forced into places where they make women uncomfortable, regardless of policing.
Maybe presume less.
Perhaps less guessing, too.
Who cares? No one is threatened by masculine females, almost all of whom are still easily clocked as females.
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Thermal
August Member
Ok... so when you said that we need to keep people who look like men out of women's spaces, you were kidding? I mean I'll cop to my antenna for flippancy being off ITT, because of a lot of the positions put forth.
Very likely, literally everyone effected, including and especially the women.
I think the issue is far wider than who feels threatened, especially when the threat is entirely between the ears.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Some people just can't get their heads around the fact that females have almost 100% success rate in spotting males cosplaying as women, no matter how good those men are at playing dress-up.
To be fair, its mostly young male people that can't be trusted.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
No.
People who look like men aren't the problem. Men who demand an entitlement to be there regardless of how women feel about it are the problem.
And we already have a perfectly cromulent solution for that: Entitling women, by social convention and by law, to police their spaces without fear of reprisal.
That solution has worked for decades, maybe even a century or more. No need to reinvent the wheel. Certainly no need to invent a square wheel, and then agonize over the bumpy ride it causes.
Thermal
August Member
I'm really getting a kick out of hearing how women should 'police' their restrooms and confront these potentially dangerous criminals in the enclosed space. Because confronting dangerous people is such a safe and prudent thing do do.
You don't think they are dangerous. You think they are perfectly safe transwomen, and want the legally protected opportunity to humiliate them and put them in their place.
If one of you guys even believed what you said, you would never suggest the women confront a potentially dangerous man in a secluded space like that. You'd advise her to get the ◊◊◊◊ out of there and find a cop. You know, to do the policing. It is literally not even crossing your mind that you are advising her to initiate a confrontation with a predator.
You don't think they are dangerous. You think they are perfectly safe transwomen, and want the legally protected opportunity to humiliate them and put them in their place.
If one of you guys even believed what you said, you would never suggest the women confront a potentially dangerous man in a secluded space like that. You'd advise her to get the ◊◊◊◊ out of there and find a cop. You know, to do the policing. It is literally not even crossing your mind that you are advising her to initiate a confrontation with a predator.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
It worked for the better part of a century.
Thermal
August Member
Nah. A transwoman was tolerated, ignored, or the woman beat feet. If anyone did challenge them, sounds like it wasn't a threat in the past either?
How often do you advise people to verbally browbeat someone dangerous that can, and is prepared to violently assault you?
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
You are either lying, or you are colossally misinformed, and I am past the point of giving a flying ◊◊◊◊ which it is because in either case, you are woefully wrong. What you have claimed above is ABSOLUTELY NOT what used to happen.
Transvestites were tolerated, because they were generally non-violent, non-aggressive individuals who appreciated that women would usually just take it in their stride when they walked into a women's toilet, and if not, or if challenged, they would immediately leave.
Transvestites NEVER DEMANDED access to women's toilets
Transvestites NEVER DEMANDED access to women's refuges
Transvestites NEVER DEMANDED access to women's rape crisis centres
Transvestites NEVER DEMANDED access to women's hospital wards and women's medical services
Transvestites NEVER DEMANDED that others MUST recognize them as real women
Transvestites NEVER DEMANDED that others MUST use their chosen pronouns
Transvestites NEVER DEMANDED that no group of women could ever meet without their presence
Transvestites NEVER went on letter-writing campaigns to get people who failed to give in to their demands suspended, or fired.
But most important of all, transvestites NEVER THREATENED VIOLENCE. They NEVER issued death threats to people, and the families of people who disagreed with their demands.
Throughout this thread in its many parts and iterations, there have been numerous examples of the current crop of transgender identified males (what you call "transwomen") doing all of the above. Some of those examples have even been posted in response to YOUR posts - examples that have been evidenced and backed up with references and sources. Thus far, you have simply tried to dismiss them as cherry picking or isolated examples, and failing that, simply ignored the evidence presented to you.
These are facts, even in New Jersey. Facts are stubborn things - they don't just go away because you don't like them, and they don't give a fat rat's arse about your feelings.
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Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
And if it did become necessary the women could confidently challenge them because they (and the transvestite) were 100% sure that the law, and everyone within earshot, would support them.
Anyone who can't see the difference between how things were and how they would be if the demands of TRAs are met is being wilfully obtuse.
angrysoba
Philosophile
I think this is completely incorrect.
Although "transgender" was not really used until comparatively recently, it seems to me that there were two other terms that were common:
Transvestites, or "cross-dressers" who considered themselves to be men who liked women's clothes. As far as I know, transvestites did NOT use women's toilets (for example, Eddie Izzard and Pete Burns? - who wore women's clothes but considered themselves to be men.)
And...
Transsexuals, who considered themselves to have changed sex through surgery. They may have used women's toilets and generally considered themselves to be women. (People like Jan Morris and Mary Hunt who considered themselves to be women).
Both of the terms seem to be out of favour now and replaced by the more amorphous transgender, which seems to cover the whole spectrum and more.
As for "People X HAVE NEVER DEMANDED" (Repeat numerous times), it may seem to you as though this repetition makes your posts seem very emphatic, but it actually comes across as tedious.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
You are wrong
Yada Yada Yada.
Regardless of what you say, it is a simple fact that Transvestites/Transexuals in the past NEVER behaved the way transgender identified males do now
I guess some people are so stupid, and so stubborn, and so proudly wrong that I felt it necessary to phrase it in a way that drummed it into their thick skulls. Actually, I think nobody cares what you think, least of all in this thread - you clearly side with the TRAs on this issue, but to make it easier, I will rephrase, just for you...
In the past, before the rise of the fad that we now know as trasngender ideology, transvestites/transexuals/transwomen (or whatever your pet nomenclature for them is) NEVER DEMANDED access to women's toilets, or women's refuges, or women's rape crisis centres or women's hospital wards, or women's medical services. Nor did they demand that others MUST recognize them as real women, or that others MUST use their chosen pronouns. Neither did they demand groups of women should be forbidden from meeting without their presence. Furthermore, they never went on letter-writing campaigns to get people who failed to give-in to their demands suspended, or fired. Most importantly, they never threatened violence - nor did they make death threats against people, and the families of people who disagreed with their demands.
Additionally, since I didn't think of it before, I would like to point out that they also did not come out in huge numbers for unruly, violent protests the way that current members of the Cult of Transgender Ideology have done, urinating and defaecating in public, vandalising and defacing public and private property, wanking in the entrance of women's toilets, holding placards imploring their supporters to kill people, and punching and kicking people who counter protested against them.
Enough?
angrysoba
Philosophile
I am pointing out that there was a distinction between transvestites and transsexuals. This is correct and different from your claims.
Also, while you may be ignorant of this, there were indeed complaints by feminists about the demands of transsexuals at least as far back as the nineties. This is something that you should know.
By the way, “Actually, I think nobody cares what you think, least of all in this thread” is a hilariously bitchy thing to say.
Nice to see you finally unblocked me though. It was interesting watching you work yourself into a lather about people who had left the thread and ranting about them being cowards all the while skulking behind the block button.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Strange thing when I was at a week's summer school course at the Gaelic college earlier in the month. On the second evening at the cèilidh a young man sat down at the table I was sitting at, wearing a trans-flag badge and a She/Her badge. He didn't stay long but wandered off. I later realised he was one of the catering staff, working in the kitchen. If it hadn't been for the badges he'd have been an entirely unremarkable young man; jeans, black t-shirt, trainers. He had long hair, but quite a lot of the men had long hair. I did notice him dancing the women's part in the dances on a subsequent evening though, when he was wearing a sort of lacy knitted cardigan over the black t-shirt. He was an attractive and personable lad, always with a ready smile and helpful when serving meals. What the badges were all about I have no idea, especially since the She/Her badge was in English and we weren't supposed to be using English. Maybe because, if he'd tried it in Gaelic, he'd have needed a sandwich board, due to the way Gaelic grammar works? Anyway, he's not the point.
Shortly after he left the table that first evening, another person sat down, and I became genuinely confused. Tall, broad shoulders, narrow hips, strong features. But no Adam's apple, no trace of a beard, no trace of male pattern baldness (which always seems to be there to a certain extent in post-puberty men) and a slim waist. Perhaps sensitised by Mr "She/Her", I started to puzzle over this.
I'm going to use female pronouns for this person, because of my eventual tentative conclusion. I interacted more with her later, because she was in the top class where a lad (Teàrlach) who had originally been in my class and sitting next to me was booted up to because his conversational skills were too good for the level he had joined. Teàrlach seemed to be getting off with this person, whose name I didn't think to ask even though I chatted with her a few times. We made a threesome at meals sometimes, but no introductions happened. Teàrlach obviously knew both our names but didn't perform the formalities. They were dancing together at the last cèilidh, with her about a foot taller than him - Teàrlach was slightly below average height.
I couldn't make up my mind, not even when speaking to her. Even her voice was hard to place. This has never happened to me before, it has always been obvious to me whether an adult was male or female within a few moments of starting a conversation at the very latest. I'd look at the height and the broad shoulders (and quite large hands) and narrow hips, and think, man. But then I'd look at the feminine features - the waist, the peaches-and-cream skin, something about the shape of the buttocks - and think, no, woman. Her mannerisms were generally feminine too.
My tentative conclusion was that I had met my first-ever CAIS woman. Teàrlach seemed to be accepting her without reservation, I don't know if he knew her before the course though. Maybe it was just me, having been so sensitised to this debate over the past few years. But on the other hand nobody, least of all her, would have had the slightest idea what was going on in my head, because obviously I kept it to myself and interacted with her as I would with anyone else. So who knows what anyone else was thinking.
If I'm right about her condition, this must be a very difficult situation to handle. I suppose she's used to it and she seemed very natural and at her ease, but I suspect I wasn't the only person thinking, what's going on here? I think though, that it's a situation made much worse by the prevalence of men pretending to be women. This puts women on their guard, and someone like this lady/girl (I'd say she was in her twenties), who would probably have attracted little remark twenty years ago, might well be at risk of challenge in women-only facilities. (Note. I would certainly have challenged Mr "She/Her" if I'd encountered him in the Ladies, but I didn't. I don't know what facilities he was using. I would not have challenged the person I'm talking about, precisely because I was anything but sure.)
I'm not really trying to make a point though, just recounting something unusual, and how disconcerting it can be when you meet someone and genuinely can't peg them as male or female. She's hardly going to pin on a badge saying "CAIS", but speculating when you don't know is a strange sensation.
Shortly after he left the table that first evening, another person sat down, and I became genuinely confused. Tall, broad shoulders, narrow hips, strong features. But no Adam's apple, no trace of a beard, no trace of male pattern baldness (which always seems to be there to a certain extent in post-puberty men) and a slim waist. Perhaps sensitised by Mr "She/Her", I started to puzzle over this.
I'm going to use female pronouns for this person, because of my eventual tentative conclusion. I interacted more with her later, because she was in the top class where a lad (Teàrlach) who had originally been in my class and sitting next to me was booted up to because his conversational skills were too good for the level he had joined. Teàrlach seemed to be getting off with this person, whose name I didn't think to ask even though I chatted with her a few times. We made a threesome at meals sometimes, but no introductions happened. Teàrlach obviously knew both our names but didn't perform the formalities. They were dancing together at the last cèilidh, with her about a foot taller than him - Teàrlach was slightly below average height.
I couldn't make up my mind, not even when speaking to her. Even her voice was hard to place. This has never happened to me before, it has always been obvious to me whether an adult was male or female within a few moments of starting a conversation at the very latest. I'd look at the height and the broad shoulders (and quite large hands) and narrow hips, and think, man. But then I'd look at the feminine features - the waist, the peaches-and-cream skin, something about the shape of the buttocks - and think, no, woman. Her mannerisms were generally feminine too.
My tentative conclusion was that I had met my first-ever CAIS woman. Teàrlach seemed to be accepting her without reservation, I don't know if he knew her before the course though. Maybe it was just me, having been so sensitised to this debate over the past few years. But on the other hand nobody, least of all her, would have had the slightest idea what was going on in my head, because obviously I kept it to myself and interacted with her as I would with anyone else. So who knows what anyone else was thinking.
If I'm right about her condition, this must be a very difficult situation to handle. I suppose she's used to it and she seemed very natural and at her ease, but I suspect I wasn't the only person thinking, what's going on here? I think though, that it's a situation made much worse by the prevalence of men pretending to be women. This puts women on their guard, and someone like this lady/girl (I'd say she was in her twenties), who would probably have attracted little remark twenty years ago, might well be at risk of challenge in women-only facilities. (Note. I would certainly have challenged Mr "She/Her" if I'd encountered him in the Ladies, but I didn't. I don't know what facilities he was using. I would not have challenged the person I'm talking about, precisely because I was anything but sure.)
I'm not really trying to make a point though, just recounting something unusual, and how disconcerting it can be when you meet someone and genuinely can't peg them as male or female. She's hardly going to pin on a badge saying "CAIS", but speculating when you don't know is a strange sensation.
Thermal
August Member
Understatement of the year, right there. I've been assuming he was trolling up till now, but now I'm starting to wonder if the ignorance is genuine?
Agreed on the important distinction, with the caveat that transsexuals didn't need to have the surgeries, but many pursued them as finances allowed.
Thermal
August Member
This is interesting. Over here in the States, that was not at all the case. I used to spend a lot of time in Atlantic City NJ USA, and going in the public restrooms on Pacific Avenue (the strip where most of the casinos were, and sharing a border with the famed red light district) was pretty much a free for all. Literally anyone might be in either room. Transvestites, transsexuals, guys in costume for whatever show they were working or audience members of, prostitutes of every description, whatever. The police did nothing till blood was flowing, and the prevailing consensus was along the lines of "Surprised? You must be new here". This was decades before our gender laws. If it was offensive to you, you went to an inland restroom, like in a Macy's. There, it was boys and girls in their respective rooms, but force of law or public vigilantism wasn't a thing, to my knowledge.
I stil live in the same state, and the 'TRA wish list' is codified in law. Nothing changed, except the town cleaned up considerably and now it's pretty much boys and girls in their respective rooms, with only a very, very occasional non-conformist in either.
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Thermal
August Member
I'm not saying it's okay or not. I'm sharing a different perspective, which might help to clarify why we see the issues so differently.
Like, Rolfe and some other UKers seem to have a particularly aggressive and nasty local contingent of transpeople going out of their way to make a public scene at every opportunity, and she seems to think that's the norm. When she said that, I understood a little better how radically different her boots on the ground experience was. Mine is very different, which might explain my higher tolerance.