Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

theprestige said:
A more just forum would have a whole section set aside for debunking trans ideology, with all the major arguments pinned at the top. Like the 9-11 debunking section.
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Rolfe said:
This has never been a just forum, if the prevailing zeitgeist didn't like the truth.
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Well, the alternative is to create your own website, a little bit like other members of this forum did with their "Closer Eye on Syria" (I don't remember the exact name), or to create a spreadsheet that you can host on a Google Drive with "Claims" in one column, and "Counter-claims" in another, with sections for links and examples. You could link to it in your signature and also use it for easy retrieval whenever a popular soundbite is made.
 
Rolfe said:
Which toilet was involved has not been revealed, or whether it was unisex or whether he had brazenly walked into the women's toilet, knowing that nobody would challenge him anyway, in that ultra-woke environment. Regardless, this is always a very real danger when men are permitted to use the same facilities as women, even if not at the same time.
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Once we implement the American solution mandating that females who pass as males (the most common kind of transgender person in younger cohorts) must be forced back into women's spaces or else face official sanction, the actual women in those spaces will become inured to seeing people who look male in those spaces and then the environment will become just as risky as the ultra-woke one you describe here, because most women will feel rude asking transmen to show their papers.

What we need is a solution that doesn't put people who look like men in women's spaces.
 
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d4m10n said:
most women will feel rude asking transmen to show their papers.
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Nonsense. Self appointed Penis Police are a force to be reckoned with. Imagine then demonstrating their fighting skills when one of the people they challenge turns out to be an actual.predator.

Oh, that's right, the Penis Police are only empowered to be confrontational douchebags to people who aren't actually a physical threat. Silly me.
d4m10n said:
What we need is a solution that doesn't put people who look like men in women's spaces.
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And what could possibly go wrong with ignoring what someone *is*, and focusing only on what they look like to some subjective stereotype, that I'm sure could be objectively codified? Extra awkward in a cooler weather climate where public restroom users may be bundled up.
 
d4m10n said:
Secondary sex characteristics are physical features; wearing skirts is a stereotype.
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Are you suggesting some novel requirement that anyone entering a public restroom, say in NYC in the winter, has no coverings on that might camolfauge said secondary characteristics? How far does your strip-down go? Who is enforcing it?

Eta: in the face of someone actually dangerous, the only things your proposed vigilante Penis Police could do under your proposal, they can do right now.

Except for one thing: under your proposal, they could humiliate and harass people who are not a real threat. And come on- that's what y'all really want.
 
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d4m10n said:
Once we implement the American solution mandating that females who pass as males (the most common kind of transgender person in younger cohorts) must be forced back into women's spaces or else face official sanction, the actual women in those spaces will become inured to seeing people who look male in those spaces and then the environment will become just as risky as the ultra-woke one you describe here, because most women will feel rude asking transmen to show their papers.

What we need is a solution that doesn't put people who look like men in women's spaces.
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One possible way of at least reducing this problem might be to find a few successful ways to help girls who have (or think they have) gender dysphoria which don't involve injecting dangerous drugs into, or chopping bits off of, their perfectly healthy bodies so that they can pass as men.
 
d4m10n said:
Can you discern a difference between "we need a solution" and "here is my solution" because if not I'm unsure how to proceed.
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You posted that what we need is something that we in fact don't need, it's just what you would like. That is, surprisingly, your proposal for what is needed.
 
Thermal said:
Nonsense. Self appointed Penis Police are a force to be reckoned with. Imagine then demonstrating their fighting skills when one of the people they challenge turns out to be an actual.predator.

Oh, that's right, the Penis Police are only empowered to be confrontational douchebags to people who aren't actually a physical threat. Silly me.

And what could possibly go wrong with ignoring what someone *is*, and focusing only on what they look like to some subjective stereotype, that I'm sure could be objectively codified? Extra awkward in a cooler weather climate where public restroom users may be bundled up.
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Thermal said:
Are you suggesting some novel requirement that anyone entering a public restroom, say in NYC in the winter, has no coverings on that might camolfauge said secondary characteristics? How far does your strip-down go? Who is enforcing it?

Eta: in the face of someone actually dangerous, the only things your proposed vigilante Penis Police could do under your proposal, they can do right now.

Except for one thing: under your proposal, they could humiliate and harass people who are not a real threat. And come on- that's what y'all really want.
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For the umpteenth time in this thread you either keep forgetting what it being asked for, or you are wilfully ignoring it. I think its the latter - you are exhibiting some type of twisted performance art. You keep fringe resetting back to some variation on arguments about the 'penis police'.

ABSOLUTLEY NO-ONE IN THIS THREAD HAS ASKED, ADVOCATED OR ARGUED FOR ANY TYPE OF GENITAL INSPECTION!! The idea that the women in this thread, and their male advocates, are wanting this, is a pure fantasy that exists only in your head.

I will repeat for the umpteenth time that which is actually being asked for. Women want a return to the right to police their OWN safe spaces - they want the right to challenge the presence of any biological male in their their safe space, and the right to NOT have to face the probability of being labelled as a bigot or transphobe, or facing consequences such as cancellation, suspension, losing their job, facing sanctions, or having a hate crime incident recorded against them, and in some cases, even being charged with a hate crime, for speaking the truth and standing up for their rights.

d4m10n said:
I don't recall proposing "Penis Police" but you do you.
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Indeed
d4m10n said:
(Alternatively, you could address what people actually wrote.)
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Well that would be a refreshing change, but a bridge too far I think
 
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Pixel42 said:
One possible way of at least reducing this problem might be to find a few successful ways to help girls who have (or think they have) gender dysphoria which don't involve injecting dangerous drugs into, or chopping bits off of, their perfectly healthy bodies so that they can pass as men.
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Historically a strong supermajority of cases resolve on their own so long as adolescent girls aren't put on the endocrine pathway and are generally expected to learn to cope with puberty by adjusting their minds to cope with their bodies rather than vice-versa. Now that the treatments exist, though, we'll always have some number of adults who choose that path, at least in free societies where women retain a "my body, my choice" ethos and the men people in power respect that.
 
d4m10n said:
Once we implement the American solution mandating that females who pass as males (the most common kind of transgender person in younger cohorts) must be forced back into women's spaces or else face official sanction, the actual women in those spaces will become inured to seeing people who look male in those spaces and then the environment will become just as risky as the ultra-woke one you describe here, because most women will feel rude asking transmen to show their papers.

What we need is a solution that doesn't put people who look like men in women's spaces.
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Isn't it lucky, then, that the SC judgment specifically addressed that point and did not do that.
 
d4m10n said:
I don't recall proposing "Penis Police" but you do you.
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Do you recall the following?
d4m10n said:
most women will feel rude asking transmen to show their papers.
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Why would anyone be asking anyone to show their papers, unless they were policing? And what would they be policed for if not being a biological male? Alliterively called Penis Policing. BTW, that's all Penis Police means. None of us here are so godawful stupid as to think an actual genital inspection is proposed by anyone.

...right?
d4m10n said:
(Alternatively, you could address what people actually wrote.)
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Been trying, but you keep changing the subject.
 
Thermal said:
Why would anyone be asking anyone to show their papers, unless they were policing?
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Where did I propose such policing, exactly? The part you quoted was where I said what probably wouldn't work, at least AFAICT.

ETA: Is it ever okay for anyone to question another's presence in a bathroom/locker room/nude spa etc. in your view, or all they all to be co-ed and unisex going forward?
 
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d4m10n said:
Where did I propose such policing, exactly? The part you quoted was where I said what probably wouldn't work, at least AFAICT.
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Yet your proposal was that we continue to Penis Police, but expand it to anyone who even looks like a guy. Presumably, that includes not only transmen, but cis women who don't look sufficiently girly enough to you? And it's into the men's room with the lot of them, I guess, no matter what those inadequately feminine women might prefer?

If I have thar wrong (and I surely hope I do), what do you mean by "a solution that doesn't put people who look like men in women's spaces"? Where do manly looking women go? And are you going to be there to decide what side of the masculine paper bag test they fall on?
 
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