Does 'rape culture' accurately describe (many) societies?

[Poem]

Abysmal parenting that fails to appreciate the dangers inherent in providing children with unrestricted access to the internet?

Vague. and you didn't address what I asked by anecdote.

Because, of course, the police have a random sample.

Can you clarify?

I'm simply questioning the nuetrality of observers who are steeped in a subject. I suspect you don't actually understand why I don't take the quoted individuals at face value as you do. I'm therefore giving up trying to explain to you why I believe that.

The police aren't neutral?

And, again, you didn't answer the question I asked.

 

[Poem]

Unfortunately the Children's Commissioner doesn't provide the survey data or methodology.

Based on interviews with children. Why would they be inclined to lie if you think they would be?

No. I'm describing things that are problematic in and of themselves, and are largely unaccounted for - largely unknown - by the censors.

Why are they problematic?

 

[Poem]

Causes children to kill themselves.

What are the figures?

 

[3point14]

Vague. and you didn't address what I asked by anecdote.

Can you clarify?

The police aren't neutral?

And, again, you didn't answer the question I asked.

I'm afraid this just reinforces my belief that you don't know how statistics work.

I suspect we're just talking past each other at this point.

We all want what's best, we just have different views on what that is and how we get there.

 

[Poem]

I'm afraid this just reinforces my belief that you don't know how statistics work.

I suspect we're just talking past each other at this point.

We all want what's best, we just have different views on what that is and how we get there.

That easy access porn is a higher societal priority than the severe harm such content causes children (who should never have been able to stumble upon it in the first place) is not evidence that 'all want what's best'; rather, it is an indictment of all of us.

 

[3point14]

That easy access porn is a higher societal priority than the severe harm such content causes children (who should never have been able to stumble upon it in the first place) is not evidence that 'all want what's best'; rather, it is an indictment of all of us.

Again. And for the last time. They 'stumble upon' porn on a device provided by their parents, on an internet contract paid for and provided by their parents. (Isn't it a crime to provide porn to minors..?)

I'm done.

 

[Poem]

Again. And for the last time. They 'stumble upon' porn on a device provided by their parents, on an internet contract paid for and provided by their parents. (Isn't it a crime to provide porn to minors..?)

I'm done.

If they are denied a device by their parents then they will look on a friends phone/laptop. Pornhub et al are recklessly facilitating this sexual abuse. As De Souza has said re big tech - where's their moral compass?

Noting again you never responded to my specific questions. You're done because you don't have a response to the indictment.

 

[3point14]

If they are denied a device by their parents then they will look on a friends phone/laptop. Pornhub et al are recklessly facilitating this sexual abuse. As De Souza has said re big tech - where's their moral compass?

Noting again you never responded to my specific questions. You're done because you don't have a response to the indictment.

Fools rush in and all that...


The fact that I don't answer your questions is not the slam-dunk you think it is.

I don't care what De Souza said and you don't understand why.

I have neither the time nor, to be fair, sufficient knowlege to explain to you why I don't care about all of these quotes you've provided. You've adequately demonstrated that you don't understand the difference between data and anecdote (in this, of all places).

 

[Helen]

Many, maybe most (certainly up here in the Nordic countriez), children used to share a bed with their parents until they grew up, the same bed in which more children were made. They saw livestock, and all sorts of animals,mating. Children used to see porn on mosaics, on amphoras, on clay tablets, and so on - yes, porn, not just sex acts! Do you think children didn't see the illustration in the Kama Sutra for instance? I am not a proponent for porn, much of it is quite distasteful to me personally, but the puritanical horror of it in parts of the Western world is a new phenomenon. Talk to your children, answer their questions in an age aporopriate way, monitor their use of the internet (for many reasons; bullying and grooming are at the top of my list) and encourage sex ed in schools.

I am beginning to wonder if you are an honest interlocutor, Poem, you seem to be an inveterate mover of goslposts, and a cherry picker if experts and "experts".

 

[Poem]

Many, maybe most (certainly up here in the Nordic countriez), children used to share a bed with their parents until they grew up, the same bed in which more children were made.

Did the parents, in general, put their children in the optimum viewing position for maximum arousal?
Not even remotely comparable.

They saw livestock, and all sorts of animals,mating. Children used to see porn on mosaics, on amphoras, on clay tablets, and so on - yes, porn, not just sex acts! Do you think children didn't see the illustration in the Kama Sutra for instance?

Again, not remotely comparable to internet porn.

I am not a proponent for porn, much of it is quite distasteful to me personally, but the puritanical horror of it in parts of the Western world is a new phenomenon. Talk to your children, answer their questions in an age aporopriate way, monitor their use of the internet (for many reasons; bullying and grooming are at the top of my list) and encourage sex ed in schools.

Hasn't and doesn't work and you know it - have posted on it many times - the Oxford study by Doctor Nash, NEU's Daniel Kebede and Rachel De Souza.

I am beginning to wonder if you are an honest interlocutor, Poem, you seem to be an inveterate mover of goslposts, and a cherry picker if experts and "experts".

Yet no evidence of such.

 

[Helen]

Yet no evidence of such.

Reread your posts.

 

[Poem]

Reread your posts.

Evidence of dishonesty, moving goalposts and cherry picking? Put up or shut up.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Many, maybe most (certainly up here in the Nordic countriez), children used to share a bed with their parents until they grew up, the same bed in which more children were made. They saw livestock, and all sorts of animals,mating. Children used to see porn on mosaics, on amphoras, on clay tablets, and so on - yes, porn, not just sex acts! Do you think children didn't see the illustration in the Kama Sutra for instance? I am not a proponent for porn, much of it is quite distasteful to me personally, but the puritanical horror of it in parts of the Western world is a new phenomenon. Talk to your children, answer their questions in an age aporopriate way, monitor their use of the internet (for many reasons; bullying and grooming are at the top of my list) and encourage sex ed in schools.

I am beginning to wonder if you are an honest interlocutor, Poem, you seem to be an inveterate mover of goslposts, and a cherry picker if experts and "experts".

Context is important. Children seeing people having "vanilla" sex is not the problem. Children (and adults for that matter) being algorithmically led down a rabbit hole that leads to hundreds or thousands of examples of porn stars acting out coercive, rough and potentially lethal sex acts is of more concern.

Vanilla sex = people whose behaviour demonstrates they care about each other's wellbeing and pleasure.

 

[Helen]

Do you really think that vanilla sex is the only kind of sex kids have seen through the centuries? Then you are sadly mistaken. Children have never been as protected from the less appetising aspects of adult life as they are now, generellt speaking.

Children have witnessed coercive, violent and lethal sex in almost all cultures throughout human history. In reality. Up close. And they have far more often been the victims of such sex as well, routinely, as slaves, or in wars, and in initiation rites, or just for fun. The protectiveness we (as a society, there have always been individuals who have cared) feel today is wonderful, and it makes me happy, but the greatest harm done to children is done by other people much closer to them than images online.

Do I wish that porn was less ubiquituous? Yes. But the moral panic is in my view way over the top. Whenever there is a new kind of medium, we panic - cheap mass produced books? Panic about the effects on young minds. Moving pictures? Radio, television, video? Same, same, same. In Sweden we had the very specific dansbaneeländet (yes, Darat, you bury it in a peet bog for 400 years before you eat it), ie public outdoor dancing in summer, which would surely guarantee that a whole generation would be utterly morally corrupted. And now the internet. I think we should be careful and monitor our kids, just as we should always be careful and monitor them, and as I have said before, be extra careful about what they are subjected to on social media, which can be a cesspool of potential harm.

I am not trying to argue that online porn is beneficial, just not necessarily something to get in a tissy about. Especially since our attitudes towards sex are changing; we discuss consent far more than just a few years ago, rape is no longer acceptable in relationships, nor are we now as quick to blame victims of sexual abuse as we have been. All this will benefit children as well.

Am on my phone, with Swedish predictive text on, so sorry about any spelling or grammar atrocities. (How nice it is to have a good excuse for once!)

 

[TragicMonkey]

Context is important. Children seeing people having "vanilla" sex is not the problem. Children (and adults for that matter) being algorithmically led down a rabbit hole that leads to hundreds or thousands of examples of porn stars acting out coercive, rough and potentially lethal sex acts is of more concern.

Vanilla sex = people whose behaviour demonstrates they care about each other's wellbeing and pleasure.

Hetero only, missionary position only, for the intention of creating children only. Right? Anything else would be sinful.

 

[3point14]

Vanilla sex = people whose behaviour demonstrates they care about each other's wellbeing and pleasure.

I feel compelled to point out: It is entirely possible for people to have non-vanilla sex where both participants care about each other's wellbeing and pleasure.

 

[Lithrael]

another interesting fact to add to this discussion is that if you ban the porn sites, people will just put more and more porn on other sites, particularly social media sites, because there’s nowhere else to get the porn.

and of course, if this is completely the parents responsibility, even the ok sites start becoming a problem due to the fact that their moderation standards are already terrible, and let’s face, they just want engagement and their moderation to be the absolute minimum amount of cost.

so maybe enforcing a higher moderation standard on normal websites, with a particular focus on the giant social media sites worth trillions of dollars who freely allow porn and rampant scams, and keeping the porn contained to reasonably accessible porn sites is the way to go. imo anyway.

100%. Ironically enough, while many years ago Tumblr was absolutely primo for dispensing the best porn gifs around, the porn that's left is really very well siloed. It took a while after they officially kicked it off, but weirdly enough the userbase mostly doesnt actually want porn bots or promoters on their feed and is surprisingly collectively effective at reporting it. Now, the other side of that coin is that it's pretty easy for a small group to maliciously report someone and get them algorithmically suspended, and as the mod team is like, sarah and kevin, it can take a long time to get reinstated.

I mean, there's still some cartoon dicks on there and people promoting their onlyfans etc. But you're not seeing it by accident. TBF I did find 1 (one) actual penis on there searching my old favorite hashtag just now, at the top of the page, and suspect it'll be taken down by later today. The rest is making out and touching butts. So it can be done.

Talk about moderation. The scams on Facebook make my head spin, and vulnerable people are losing life changing amounts of money on there every day. Hell, even Youtube is still accepting and running ads made of fake AI footage for those goddamned 'lifelike robot pets.' Then there's the systemic problem of supplement companies whose business model is 'get an old person's credit card and rail it for all they're worth.' Oh those charges were for our health newsletter and the subscription to our bottles of sawdust! Oh you've bedn returning them? gosh we'll start looking for those right away.

*cough* sorry. pet peeve

ETA: a good few pages down and I found 2 more dicks, and an I DID NOT KNOW DANIEL CRAIG WAS THAT HOT

I will stop researching now. maybe

 

[theprestige]

Based on interviews with children. Why would they be inclined to lie if you think they would be?

Trust but verify is my motto in such matters. If you're pushing a certain conclusion on me, I want to see the basis for that conclusion. "Trust me, bro" is not an acceptable answer from a politician or government agent.

Why are they problematic?

Because they normalize porn, porn-adjacent, and fetishistic material for children, enable grooming, etc.

 

[Poem]

Trust but verify is my motto in such matters. If you're pushing a certain conclusion on me, I want to see the basis for that conclusion. "Trust me, bro" is not an acceptable answer from a politician or government agent.

The question was why would they be inclined to lie.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Do you really think that vanilla sex is the only kind of sex kids have seen through the centuries? Then you are sadly mistaken. Children have never been as protected from the less appetising aspects of adult life as they are now, generellt speaking.

Children have witnessed coercive, violent and lethal sex in almost all cultures throughout human history. In reality. Up close. And they have far more often been the victims of such sex as well, routinely, as slaves, or in wars, and in initiation rites, or just for fun. The protectiveness we (as a society, there have always been individuals who have cared) feel today is wonderful, and it makes me happy, but the greatest harm done to children is done by other people much closer to them than images online.

Do I wish that porn was less ubiquituous? Yes. But the moral panic is in my view way over the top. Whenever there is a new kind of medium, we panic - cheap mass produced books? Panic about the effects on young minds. Moving pictures? Radio, television, video? Same, same, same. In Sweden we had the very specific dansbaneeländet (yes, Darat, you bury it in a peet bog for 400 years before you eat it), ie public outdoor dancing in summer, which would surely guarantee that a whole generation would be utterly morally corrupted. And now the internet. I think we should be careful and monitor our kids, just as we should always be careful and monitor them, and as I have said before, be extra careful about what they are subjected to on social media, which can be a cesspool of potential harm.

I am not trying to argue that online porn is beneficial, just not necessarily something to get in a tissy about. Especially since our attitudes towards sex are changing; we discuss consent far more than just a few years ago, rape is no longer acceptable in relationships, nor are we now as quick to blame victims of sexual abuse as we have been. All this will benefit children as well.

Am on my phone, with Swedish predictive text on, so sorry about any spelling or grammar atrocities. (How nice it is to have a good excuse for once!)

Brains learn about the world from examples.
Inferences are reasonably made from the type and quantity of the content in the examples.
Both the type and the quantity are often skewed by algorithms which at best promote more of the same, but often drift to ever more extreme content.

Brains trained on extreme examples will not be well adapted to the real world today, but once enough brains have been trained on extreme examples, it will shape the real world tomorrow.

The examples could be sex (porn), politics, climate change, female body shape, what a man 'should' be, etc.