Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

Is Misty Hill a representative example of the group 'transsexual women'?
Misty Hill is a member of the group of transsexual women. I do not know how common his sort is, but he's not unique. So how is one to consider him? This question stands whether he is representative or not.
How many transsexual women do you know of, including casual acquaintances or relatives or friends of friends, but excluding reports in the press or from posts by campaigners on social media?
This isn't relevant to my question. You're claiming that female who encounter a trans identifying male in a bathroom should be able to create a mental model of what that male's mind is like. This should apply whether said female personally knows other trans identifying males or not. Such first-hand knowledge cannot reasonably be a prerequisite for them to form said model.
 
Earlier you said that you treat men and women differently, but when I asked you what the difference was in your treatment, you said you didn't treat men and women differently.

You also said that you decided whether to treat someone as a man or as a woman based on which gender role they expressed, but when I asked you how you could distinguish between the two, you gave a vague answer that had no practical value.

So I'm pretty sure you can't explain what non-delusional "reality" transgender identity is based on.

Further, I would argue that every single practical application of transgender identity is about sex. Specifically, it's about being treated as the opposite sex, for purposes of sex segregation. (Incidentally, I think this is why you're having such a hard time finding anything concrete or practical to say about gender identity.)

So when we get down to what transgender identity actually means, in practical terms, it is based on the reality of sex, and denies that reality. At best, it's delusional the way religion is delusional. At worst, it's delusional the way paranoid schizophrenia is delusional. In between, there's also delusional like social contagion and delusional like factitious disorder by proxy, among many other delusional and delusion-adjacent behaviors.

Vague handwaving at the idea of gender being a social construct doesn't even begin to address what's really going on.
re: highlighted you are trying to handwave away the idea of 'gender being a social construct' and it being very pertinent to the discussion at hand.

Also you are selectively picking at bits of what I have said and not addressing the totality.
 
The father who sexually abused me when I was a child bears no responsibility whatsoever?
Don't accept his premise that a mere penis is disturbing. As I said above, it's almost certainly the presence of a male who chooses to violate the social prohibition on showing you a penis that bothers you. And rightly so. Your history of abuse may heighten that concern, but basic survival instincts would warn you of danger even without such a history.
Have you any idea what percentage of women have been raped, abused, threatened, harassed, flashed at or perved on by males?
Women who have never been abused are just as correct to be disturbed by such displays, even if their feelings aren't as intense as yours.
 
re: highlighted you are trying to handwave away the idea of 'gender being a social construct' and it being very pertinent to the discussion at hand.

Also you are selectively picking at bits of what I have said and not addressing the totality.
How is it relevant?

Gender is a social construct, but it's built on top of biological sex. There is no gender without sex. Everything about gender is done in reference to sex. Without sex, gender references nothing. Without sex, gender doesn't exist. And no matter how much you bend or reshape or reconstruct gender into some new social construct different from the old social construct, it cannot change sex.
 
re: highlighted you are trying to handwave away the idea of 'gender being a social construct' and it being very pertinent to the discussion at hand.
I am not trying to handwave this away. I've given it a lot of thought and discussion over several years. The conclusion I've reached about gender as a social construct isn't a knee-jerk dismissal or a lazy handwave. It's a considered result of much thought and debate over a lengthy period of time.

And my conclusion is that gender is a social construct, but it has no practical applications in modern society. Outside of anti-discrimination laws, it useless for determining public policy, because it has no practical applications. Therefore, it follows for me that gender-as-a-social-construct is absolutely not pertinent to the discussion of trans rights in public policy. Because gender has nothing practical to say about trans rights. All trans rights debates today are debates about sex segregation, not gender identity.

Also you are selectively picking at bits of what I have said and not addressing the totality.
My perception is that the totality of what you have said is vague and lacking in practical value, and that even you don't know what you mean by it. I'm not picking at bits of what you have said. I'm providing an overview with supporting examples.

What are the specific, practical ways in which you treat women differently from men?
 
So when we get down to what transgender identity actually means, in practical terms, it is based on the reality of sex, and denies that reality. At best, it's delusional the way religion is delusional.
This is a bit ungenerous. I think at best, transgender identity is pretend. A trans identifying male might say, "I know I'm not a female, but I wish I was. So I'm going to pretend I am, and I want the people around me to pretend I am as well, even though everyone knows I'm not." That's a fantasy, but not a delusion.

And in certain contexts, such pretend play may be harmless when everyone is willing to play. But it's never true, and it very much can be harmful if you try to force others to play.
 
Is Misty Hill a representative example of the group 'transsexual women'?

How many transsexual women do you know of, including casual acquaintances or relatives or friends of friends, but excluding reports in the press or from posts by campaigners on social media?

Do you think you've been exposed to a representative sample of transsexual women?
Normally the No True Scotsman fallacy annoys me, but I confess that I'm interested in arguments based on the "no true transwoman" premise.

If fiat self-ID admits "false" transwomen like Misty Hill, then it's no solution to dismiss that example as not being a "true" transwoman. All you're doing is saying that fiat self-ID fails as a policy.
 
Normally the No True Scotsman fallacy annoys me, but I confess that I'm interested in arguments based on the "no true transwoman" premise.

If fiat self-ID admits "false" transwomen like Misty Hill, then it's no solution to dismiss that example as not being a "true" transwoman. All you're doing is saying that fiat self-ID fails as a policy.
I don't support fiat self-ID. I think anyone and particularly a young person feeling like they are in the 'wrong' body should be carefully assessed and supported by trained professionals in mental health. Only after that could a GRC be issued.
 
The spa does not advertise single sex spaces, specifically referring to gender only.
It is literally illegal for them to advertise single sex spaces, and (arguably) has been ever since the amendment of the Unruh Act by the Civil Rights Act of 2005. That said, the spa offers over a dozen services for "females only" and those do not take place in the common area of the jimjilbang.
My position is that when you engage in behaviors with predictable outcomes, you need to accept all outcomes, even those you did not expressly want.
It was broadly predictable that someone somewhere would eventually become a groundbreaking pioneer in the art of legally protected exhibitionism, but it wasn't remotely predictable that this would happen to those patrons in that place on that day. They probably had no reason to expect that the laws had even been changed so as to nullify the usual legal prohibitions against exhibitionism, given the majority party's incentives not to discuss predicably unpopular outcomes of generally popular legislation.
Don't hang around hornet nests and its less likely you get stung.
Silly women assumed all the stingers were still on the other floor, as they had experienced on every previous visit.
And we found that they don't.
What we actually found was that the prosecution lost a case they'd've easily won two decades ago, when it was broadly understood that all penis-havers had certain duties respecting those to whom they display themselves, regardless of their subjective sense of self.
Everything said applies to transmen too.
If you want to provide legal or social cover for people who act upon exhibitionist urges, you should probably be aware that the vast majority of those people are male.
No one is advocating based on penis having.
Other than Merager apologists, who are defending specific actions performed with specific anatomy.
 
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I don't support fiat self-ID.
But you can't explain a coherent alternative. You have some vague notions of needing expert approval, but no idea what that would actually consist of.
I think anyone and particularly a young person feeling like they are in the 'wrong' body should be carefully assessed and supported by trained professionals in mental health. Only after that could a GRC be issued.
And could the GRC be denied? On what grounds? Without some clear basis for denial, it won't happen, and this just becomes self ID with extra steps. You have never given any indication of how the refusal of a GRC could actually happen.
 
But you can't explain a coherent alternative. You have some vague notions of needing expert approval, but no idea what that would actually consist of.

And could the GRC be denied? On what grounds? Without some clear basis for denial, it won't happen, and this just becomes self ID with extra steps. You have never given any indication of how the refusal of a GRC could actually happen.
The GRC process is mainly for the wellbeing of the people who believe they are in the wrong body to help them to make the right choices.

The process would take many months for an adult or years for a child, which would probably put off people with other issues faking gender dysphoria. Those that did engage would be directed to treatment for their problematic behaviour rather than handed a GRC.
 
The GRC process is mainly for the wellbeing of the people who believe they are in the wrong body to help them to make the right choices.

The process would take many months for an adult or years for a child, which would probably put off people with other issues faking gender dysphoria. Those that did engage would be directed to treatment for their problematic behaviour rather than handed a GRC.
UK - Standard route:

  • is aged 18 or over
  • has been diagnosed with gender dysphoria
  • has lived in their acquired gender in the UK for at least 2 years
  • intends to live in their acquired gender for the rest of their life
...snip...
If you are using the Standard Track then you will need two medical reports completed using the T452 forms. The first of the medical reports will need to be completed by your gender specialist, which must be either a doctor or a psychologist/psychiatrist and must give details of your diagnosis. Most of the gender specialists in the UK will already be used to completing these reports and will have copies of the forms. If the gender specialist who originally made your diagnosis has retired then another gender specialist can complete the report for you if they have access to the original notes produced by the previous specialist.

The second medical report for the Standard Track needs to be completed by a doctor, who does not need to be a gender specialist. Most applicants tend to choose their own GP for this part. They will need to give details of any treatment that you have received and any further treatment you plan to have, including what medication was prescribed and surgical procedures performed.

The information must be detailed and specific, listing what medication and doses that are involved rather than just stating you are on ‘hormone therapy’, or stating specific procedures that have been carried such as ‘Hysterectomy’ rather than just stating ‘gender reassignment surgery’. If you have not had any surgery then the report must explain clearly as to the reason why. This could be because you are currently still waiting for surgery on a waiting list, or you aren’t medically able to or for any other reasons, but an explanation has to be included as to why this is so.

...snip...

Lots more detail of the requirements: https://www.gires.org.uk/obtaining-your-gender-recognition-certificate/
 
The GRC process is mainly for the wellbeing of the people who believe they are in the wrong body to help them to make the right choices.
In other words, it's not really designed to prevent people abusing the process.
The process would take many months for an adult or years for a child, which would probably put off people with other issues faking gender dysphoria.
Wouldn't put off Misty Hill.
Those that did engage would be directed to treatment for their problematic behaviour rather than handed a GRC.
Has this actually happened to anyone? Because one of the things I never, ever hear from the trans treatment industry is about people they turn away. As far as I can tell, they don't turn anyone away, they don't turn anyone down for treatment. The time requirement will weed out some people, sure, but that's it. In fact, a consistent complaint from detransitioners is that nobody actually questioned their transition, everyone just affirmed it. So what problemantic behavior actually gets anyone denied a GRC? And can a GRC ever be revoked?

Oh, and how exactly are they supposed to live as the other gender when they don't have a GRC yet? If the GRC doesn't really matter, then it's easy, but if the GRC is what we are supposed to go by, then it rather does, and trying to live as the other gender without one is going to be rather challenging, isn't it? Should a trans identifying male who does not yet have his GRC but is trying to get it be allowed in the women's bathroom?
 
It is literally illegal for them to advertise single sex spaces
Great. Then your claim that these were single sex spaces is bull ◊◊◊◊. Everyone going there was aware that they were gender segregated, not sex, insomuch as they are familiar with the language and their representatives' legislation.
It was broadly predictable that someone somewhere would eventually become a groundbreaking pioneer in the art of legally protected exhibitionism, but it wasn't remotely predictable that this would happen to those patrons in that place on that day.
Pretty sure about that? We know there WI spa had a list on that very day of transgender patrons, of which Merager was one. Were they invisible up till then?

Before you pursue your assumptions and speculation any further, you need to demonstrate what was the norm for transgender patrons on that day, and previously.

{Eta: it has been put forth that the elusive "Cubana Angel" complainant, of "there is no such thing as transgender and Jesus is Lord!" fame, set this ◊◊◊◊ up from the jump. From what I've read, I'm inclined to agree.}
Silly women assumed all the stingers were still on the other floor, as they had experienced on every previous visit.
Pretty sure you have determined where those stingers were? If so, you forgot to post it.

What was the transgender policy at that time? What was disclosed to patrons? Specifics, please. We've had quite enough made up ◊◊◊◊.
What we actually found was that the prosecution lost a case they'd've easily won two decades ago
Oh, so you want to return to the good old days, when people knew their place? Why don't we roll back the clock further, when women wouldn't be voting? Further?
If you want to provide legal or social cover for people who act upon exhibitionist urges, you should probably be aware that the vast majority of those people are male.
Those goalposts getting heavy, are they? The argument was that this was not a male specific argument.

The current fig leaf is that "aw hey man, we are the pro women side". Well, show your support for the desires of... what's the derogatory descriptor?... ah yes, "transgender identified females" instead of telling them to ◊◊◊◊ off, you're only concerned with proper cis women.
Other than Merager apologists, who are defending specific actions performed with specific anatomy.
Dude, I agree that Merager shouldn't have been in there. But to defend that, we have to bluntly acknowledge that we are not really serious about anti-discrimination laws, and that we actually want it, at least sometimes.

This was a Korean style spa, which bucks the traditional American social norm of covering up in an open space. We generally don't parade around naked in honor of ancient Korean bathouse customs. Every patron willingly accepted this "immodest" (WI spa's descriptor) social norm. Menager was more of a sideways step in ignoring our cultural norms than a table flip of them.
 
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Dude, I agree that Merager shouldn't have been in there. But to defend that, we have to bluntly acknowledge that we are not really serious about anti-discrimination laws, and that we actually want it, at least sometimes.
YES!!!! OF COURSE WE ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ DO!!!! THAT'S THE WHOLE GOD DAMN POINT!!!!
 

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