Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

Matthew Best said:
No, I want you to elaborate on why the fact that there are correlations between brain structure and behaviour means that females should not have female-only spaces.
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<Sigh>

I want people in this thread to apply a bit of nuance rather than black and white, all or nothing thinking. I think I might be waiting a long time!
 
Elaedith said:
There is no way to give a tiny fraction of the male population access to female spaces without removing the right of women to object to males in female spaces and therefore giving all males access to female spaces. We have already been over this a thousand times. You have not produced a single statement on this topic that suggests you have thought about it at all.
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Why is there no way to do this? To me it seems like it would be very possible to restrict access to (even a sub-set of) transwomen.
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
Given the documented long-term harm sexual, physical and emotion abuse of people (particularly of young people) has, it is clear why paedophilia is not going to be accepted.
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Sure. But now you're presuming that things like transitioning kids doesn't do any harm. What if you're wrong?
Ivor the Engineer said:
Nature is unfathomably complex. Many of the human created problems in the world have at their root us applying rules derived from our simplified and often ignorant models of reality too rigidly and/or too broadly and being unwilling to update them with new information.
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Sometimes. And sometimes it's a Chesterton's fence: you think you can dispose of a rule because you don't understand its purpose, but doing so will have negative consequences you can't understand.

What new information has shown that sex segregation in intimate spaces is useless? What new information has shown that males have no biological advantage in sports over females? What new information has shown that self identified trans people need to transcend sex segregation?
 
Ziggurat said:
OK, how? The only way I can come up with is to allow in only the ones who pass.
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I think you're mixing up the law vs the enforcement of the law. Perhaps in the future we will all have implanted at birth an AI informant that will communicate with the authorities any transgression of the law we make, second by second, day by day. @smartcooky is no doubt hoping he gets to live in such a world!

There are many laws that people bend, but so long as it is not too egregious or we are unlucky, no harm is done. Unfortunately egregious law breakers (aka predators) will not care about any law they want to break. I.e., those people don't care about existing laws, so it's a non-starter trying to craft laws that will stop them.
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
The state could issue physical GRCs after assessment and treatment.
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The central agenda of the modern transgender rights movement is to remove any requirement for assessment or treatment to get a GRC or to be considered the sex you identify as. Sex is a social construct invented by white male colonialists to oppress women and trans people, and should be replaced with self chosen gender identity (gender identity ideology), Nobody ever knows what sex anyone is without asking for their pronouns. Discriminating against female-identified people just because they have not had an assessment or transitioned is literal violence. It is considered transphobic to suggest that anyone needs a diagnosis or to transition in order to be considered transgender. So what you are saying makes you a raging transphobe and bigot according to TRAs. Yet all you have done is attack and insult other people who oppose gender identity ideology.
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
I think you're mixing up the law vs the enforcement of the law.
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What, you think these are unconnected? What good is a law that cannot be enforced at all?
Ivor the Engineer said:
Perhaps in the future we will all have implanted at birth an AI informant that will communicate with the authorities any transgression of the law we make, second by second, day by day.
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Perhaps. Such a hypothetical future is not an answer to the question, since we still need to deal with the issue today.
Ivor the Engineer said:
There are many laws that people bend, but so long as it is not too egregious or we are unlucky, no harm is done.
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Still no answer. Whether or not we allow some violations, there are still rules which we are allowing to be violated. You have not told me what they could be.

It’s almost as if you don’t actually know.
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
The state could issue physical GRCs after assessment and treatment.
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Ah. So you CAN answer the question. This is a start.

Ok, so what’s required to qualify? Do you need to be on hormones? Do you need to have top surgery? Bottom surgery? Who does the assessment, and on what basis? Can anyone ever be turned down? On what grounds?

I don’t know if I will like your answers, but I can guarantee the trans rights activists will hate them. This is gatekeeping, and you aren’t supposed to do that.
 
Elaedith said:
The central agenda of the modern transgender rights movement is to remove any requirement for assessment or treatment to get a GRC or to be considered the sex you identify as. Sex is a social construct invented by white male colonialists to oppress women and trans people, and should be replaced with self chosen gender identity (gender identity ideology), Nobody ever knows what sex anyone is without asking for their pronouns. Discriminating against female-identified people just because they have not had an assessment or transitioned is literal violence. It is considered transphobic to suggest that anyone needs a diagnosis or to transition in order to be considered transgender. So what you are saying makes you a raging transphobe and bigot according to TRAs. Yet all you have done is attack and insult other people who oppose gender identity ideology.
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From where I'm standing many of the people here seem to be just as extreme as any TRA.

Of all the problems in society and the world this one has been blown out of all proportion and hijacked by the far-right to get support from otherwise tolerant people.

If anyone was serious about tackling male violence they would be suggesting we do things that actually work and have many more benefits, such as reducing childhood poverty, addressing inequality, education and early intervention. Heck, doing those things might result in fewer trans people in the first place for some people to get worked up about! But instead we pretend we can't afford to do those things because wealthy people think they deserve their wealth and poor people deserve to suffer.
 
Louden Wilde said:
Boy I hope you understand how that could be offensive to (actual) women. Girls and women all over the world are oppressed/discriminated against on the basis of their sex, not identity.
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That’s precisely WHY it’s funny. Because it’s ridiculous on its face. It calls out the TRAs who actually believe this ◊◊◊◊ by making the absurdity of their position plain.
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
From where I'm standing many of the people here seem to be just as extreme as any TRA.

Of all the problems in society and the world this one has been blown out of all proportion and hijacked by the far-right to get support from otherwise tolerant people.

If anyone was serious about tackling male violence they would be suggesting we do things that actually work and have many more benefits, such as reducing childhood poverty, addressing inequality, education and early intervention. Heck, doing those things might result in fewer trans people in the first place for some people to get worked up about! But instead we pretend we can't afford to do those things because wealthy people think they deserve their wealth and poor people deserve to suffer.
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So you have no answer then. I thought not.
 
Ziggurat said:
Ah. So you CAN answer the question. This is a start.

Ok, so what’s required to qualify? Do you need to be on hormones? Do you need to have top surgery? Bottom surgery? Who does the assessment, and on what basis? Can anyone ever be turned down? On what grounds?

I don’t know if I will like your answers, but I can guarantee the trans rights activists will hate them. This is gatekeeping, and you aren’t supposed to do that.
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May I suggest you find a TRA sub-forum on reddit and post there? I'm not and never have been a TRA.

I don't have the answers to those questions because I'm not an expert in the treatment of trans people. However, I think what might be more important is an assessment of the individual's psychological characteristics.
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
If anyone was serious about tackling male violence
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Once again, you don’t get to demand we don’t take precautions against male violence on the grounds that we aren’t doing enough to stop it. No. That’s not acceptable.
Ivor the Engineer said:
they would be suggesting we do things that actually work and have many more benefits, such as reducing childhood poverty, addressing inequality, education and early intervention.
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I’m not opposed to doing any of that. But in the meantime (be a none of that works fast even in best case scenario), you don’t get to deprive women of their protections. It’s not like depriving women of their protections will even help you accomplish any of this. Nor have you demonstrated that your socialist utopia would actually eliminate the need for protections for women.

The arrogance here is astounding.
Ivor the Engineer said:
Heck, doing those things might result in fewer trans people in the first place for some people to get worked up about! But instead we pretend we can't afford to do those things because wealthy people think they deserve their wealth and poor people deserve to suffer.
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No one here is arguing against any of those things. But doing all those things isn’t a substitute for protecting women from male violence. You’re trying to substitute your own hobby horse for an issue other people care about on the grounds that you don’t, and the world doesn’t work that way. You are engaged in your own simplistic black and white thinking.
 
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