Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Emily's Cat]

Bolding mine. I'd like to go on record and say that I do not think the bolded. (I won't speak on behalf of EC and Rolfe.) I have no issue with people who are transgender. I support their right to wear what they want and to not be discriminated against with regards to employment or housing or any of the other rights that the rest of us enjoy. It's not transpeople that I object to in sex segregated spaces for women. It's men. It's biological males. That's been said by multiple people in this thread multiple times. To put it bluntly, it's not transpeople who are "second class creepy pervs" to use your words, but men. Not all men. Not even most men. But some men.

Same view from me. The only minor alteration is that I acknowledge that some males are creeps, and that some of those creeps are transgender. There's nothing magical about a male who adopts a transgender identity that makes it impossible for them to ALSO be a creep, and we've had near a decade of evidence of some of them actively being creeps. So yeah - not all males with transgender identities by any means. But also not none. I suspect Rolfe would guesstimate a higher percentage than I might... but to be fair, it's the creeps who are causing problems so they draw the attention.

I dig it. That's the way it was for decades. It was understood by all that the women's bathrooms were for women, and most men stayed out. If a creepy man came in, it would be obvious pretty quickly that he was there for an inappropriate reason and a woman could alert someone and have the creepy person removed and, and here's the key, the woman who reported the situation wouldn't be punished or admonished or ignored or worse. If a transperson came in and wasn't inappropriate, used the bathroom and left, generally not a big deal. It might get a raised eyebrow, but probably not more than that.

The problem is that that's not the status quo any more. Women have lost the right to moderate our own sex segregated spaces. If we try, we're declared the problem, the criminal even, and the inappropriate male is the victim.

So know that I'm right there with you. All I want is to return to that status quo of the old days, but at this point, I don't see how we can do that unless we have the force of law backing us up. I really don't like that, by the way. The less the law and the government is involved in my life the better, so if there's an alternative, I'd love to know it. But the alternative can't be to wait until an actual crime is committed and let the existing laws take over, because once a crime is committed, it's too late. Whatever is implemented should have the benefit of reducing the risk of criminal activity, not allowing it to happen and reacting after the fact.

(Gah, I think too much and change my mind too much and take too long to formulate a post. Posting this anyway.)
Edited to clarify wording. And again for typo fix. Ha! Made the timer.

On the bolded I disagree. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have a return to the status quo ante too, and I agree that I don't think it can really happen. My disagreement is that I don't think Thermal wants that. Thermal seems to think that males who profess to have a transgender identity should have legal right of access to female restrooms, regardless of how females feel about it, and regardless of the way in which it limits our ability to participate equally in society, and the way in which it increases our risk.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Please don't patronize me.

Good luck with that.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'd take that over this:


Pervs be equal opportunity pervin'. A new policy doesn't change that.

I'm angry at myself that I'm responding to you.

But seriously, buddy. You literally have just said that you prefer to have males taking pictures of females in female intimate spaces than having males taking pics of males in male spaces. So basically, you don't give a flying ◊◊◊◊ about transgressions against females so long as no males are harmed.

 

[Thermal]

Same view from me. The only minor alteration is that I acknowledge that some males are creeps, and that some of those creeps are transgender. There's nothing magical about a male who adopts a transgender identity that makes it impossible for them to ALSO be a creep, and we've had near a decade of evidence of some of them actively being creeps. So yeah - not all males with transgender identities by any means. But also not none. I suspect Rolfe would guesstimate a higher percentage than I might... but to be fair, it's the creeps who are causing problems so they draw the attention.


On the bolded I disagree. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have a return to the status quo ante too, and I agree that I don't think it can really happen. My disagreement is that I don't think Thermal wants that. Thermal seems to think that males who profess to have a transgender identity should have legal right of access to female restrooms, regardless of how females feel about it, and regardless of the way in which it limits our ability to participate equally in society, and the way in which it increases our risk.

Then, as with your other straw arguments, you just won't listen to what I've said a hundred times, and make up a whacky version of my postings.

 

[Thermal]

I'm angry at myself that I'm responding to you.

But seriously, buddy. You literally have just said that you prefer to have males taking pictures of females in female intimate spaces than having males taking pics of males in male spaces. So basically, you don't give a flying ◊◊◊◊ about transgressions against females so long as no males are harmed.

Taking a G rated selfie with normally dressed women in the background maybe washing their hands is worlds away from videoing pissing dicks, and you ain't so dense that you need the difference explained.

The Ticky Tocker was wrong to do that, I agree. But rudeness and public asshattery is worlds away from recoding nudity and urination without knowledge or consent.

 

[d4m10n]

I suspect Rolfe would guesstimate a higher percentage than I might... but to be fair, it's the creeps who are causing problems so they draw the attention.

Not asking for evidence here but just intuition: What's your best guess for the ratio of pervs who find it titillating to be in the ladies' room to the overall total of males who want to use that room (pervs plus those who genuinely "just need to pee")?

 

[smartcooky]

Highlighted the actual social trend. Don't know what things are like in your part of the world, but in mine hate is on the rise, as typified by the ascendency of the far-right. This thread is an example of it, as well as the perennial myopic stupidity of humans. Don't say I didn't warn you!

Here's the problem with your argument. There are masses of centre to left people hold these same opinions. The same people who who are pro-abortion rights, pro-women's rights, anti-authoritarianism also support the idea that men should not be allowed access to women's safe spaces by simple dint of calling themselves women. None of those are aspects of the political far-right.

 

[smartcooky]

Okay then. You seem perfectly fine with dudes showing their junk to nonconsenting females, so with that I'm out. You're on your own and I'll leave others to deal with your willful blindness.

I don't think he really thinks that. He was just trolling you by answering "no" because he wanted make a point of refusing to answer your direct question. This was his "I'm not gonna be trapped some uppity woman, who doesn't know her place, into answering a question the way she wants it answered" flex.

 

[Rolfe]

Not asking for evidence here but just intuition: What's your best guess for the ratio of pervs who find it titillating to be in the ladies' room to the overall total of males who want to use that room (pervs plus those who genuinely "just need to pee")?

I don't believe any male who goes into the women's bathroom genuinely "just needs to pee".

OK, I suppose a small carveout for the very rare HSTS men who really do look extremely feminine, and are going into the women's because nobody there notices, whereas the men in the men's room would be seriously taken aback. Like Blaire White. But they're rare. The AGPs are all in it for the validation and worse.

I note that in Thailand, where their status is well recognised, the Ladyboys use the men's.

 

[theprestige]

Taking a G rated selfie with normally dressed women in the background maybe washing their hands is worlds away from videoing pissing dicks, and you ain't so dense that you need the difference explained.

For me, any kind of recording in a communal restroom is not only on the same world, it's on the same continent, in the same city, on the same street, on different floors of the same ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ anti-social scumbag edifice.

At no point should we be minimizing men walking into women's restrooms and memorializing their access on film, let alone normalizing it.

 

[Ziggurat]

The Ticky Tocker was wrong to do that, I agree. But rudeness and public asshattery is worlds away from recoding nudity and urination without knowledge or consent.

That may be, but so what? It's illegal, he's being prosecuted for it. Beyond that, what do you want? Do you want some change in the law to make it harder for him to do that? If you don't have a proposal for a change, then on what basis can you claim that we can't address the trans identifying male in the women's bathroom because we're not doing something about this guy?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Seems to be, under your reasoning. You find a Ticky Tocker taking selfies so be so vile that we have to change laws, but the pee pee guy is kind of casual to you. And if we must ban ALL transpeople because of the cherry picked ones, surely we must ban ALL males from their intimate spaces? Who knows what those pervs will do?

When the rates of sexual offending and sexual victimization are even remotely close to parity by sex, then you will have a leg to stand on. Until then, it's willful misdirection to pretend that the risks and the exposure are the same.

ANYONE taking selfies in the restroom should be kicked out and penalized. But you know who does it and where? Males with transgender identities do it, and they do it in female restrooms.

ANYONE videoing personal acrivities in the restroom should be kicked out and penalized. But you know where it happens most? It happens in female restrooms, and it's males putting in the hidden cameras and misbehaving.

Stop pretending like this is something that both sexes do to a similar degree.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I have not ignored; I have completely and entirely missed those examples. How do you treat women differently from men?

He doesn't punch them in the face, of course.

 

[smartcooky]

I note that in Thailand, where their status is well recognised, the Ladyboys use the men's.

Furthermore, the men hardly bat an eyelid, let alone bother them.

 

[Thermal]

Furthermore, the men hardly bat an eyelid, let alone bother them.

Looks like ol' smartcooky is the one we really have to watch out for in the restrooms.

 

[Thermal]

When the rates of sexual offending and sexual victimization are even remotely close to parity by sex, then you will have a leg to stand on. Until then, it's willful misdirection to pretend that the risks and the exposure are the same.

ANYONE taking selfies in the restroom should be kicked out and penalized. But you know who does it and where? Males with transgender identities do it, and they do it in female restrooms.

ANYONE videoing personal acrivities in the restroom should be kicked out and penalized. But you know where it happens most? It happens in female restrooms, and it's males putting in the hidden cameras and misbehaving.

Stop pretending like this is something that both sexes do to a similar degree.

I agree, of course. The point I was making was a different one.

 

[Thermal]

For me, any kind of recording in a communal restroom is not only on the same world, it's on the same continent, in the same city, on the same street, on different floors of the same ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ anti-social scumbag edifice.

At no point should we be minimizing men walking into women's restrooms and memorializing their access on film, let alone normalizing it.

Agreed. Tell SC and his screenshot all about it.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Not asking for evidence here but just intuition: What's your best guess for the ratio of pervs who find it titillating to be in the ladies' room to the overall total of males who want to use that room (pervs plus those who genuinely "just need to pee")?

I'll WAG at 50%.... But I'm also going to add some commentary.

Of the total number of males who have transgender identities, I wildly speculate that 20% of them don't use female restrooms at all, because they actually respect females. Take that with a grain of salt, add or subtract to whatever feels right to you.

Of the remaining 80%, let's say that only half of them are pervy. I say pervy not as a judgement on transgenderiness, but a judgement on males of the human species. Required "not all males" disclaimer. At the end of the day, males are simply pervier than females. It is what it is.

So let's talk about the remaining 40%. Of those, I would guess that at most 1/4 of them are old-school transsexuals who've put in the work and the effort and arguably pass well enough that they can get away with it, and it's the most rational thing for them to do.

The rest of them, however... even if they're not perving about it, they're intentionally violating female boundaries while knowing full well that it makes females feel uncomfortable and threatened, and they relish the power they have to force females to bend to their will. They're exerting a very masculine kind of power to intimidate and control females for their own benefit.

In summary... out of the entire population of males with transgender identities:

• 20% don't use female restrooms out of courtesy and respect
• 10% are old-school transsexuals who pass well enough that it's the rational thing to do
• 40% are pervs
• 30% are engaging in intimidation and dominance displays in order to control females

I have no data, so take it or leave it as suits you. Either way, that's 70% of males with transgender identities that I don't want anywhere near a female restroom.

 

[Rolfe]

You're too kind.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I don't think he really thinks that. He was just trolling you by answering "no" because he wanted make a point of refusing to answer your direct question. This was his "I'm not gonna be trapped some uppity woman, who doesn't know her place, into answering a question the way she wants it answered" flex.

Nah, he wants to add some special pleading interpretation where "exposes themself to females without consent" somehow means "accidentally got seen by a female and it was just an oopsie" and then pretend like that makes sense.