Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
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Sure. But you just claimed you were only defending your answer to that question, and objected when I said you were doing more than that.
Transwomen are not Women - Part 15
- Thread starter d4m10n
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d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
It actually strikes me as counterintuitive to discuss any problem without also discussing proposed solutions.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
And I think your answer is profoundly wrong.
Strict segregation by sex in sports has not become a problem because of recent advances in Passing Tech. It's become a problem because trans rights activists have ideologically captured private and public policymakers, with a mix of propaganda and extortion, that inclines them to deprecate strict segregation policies.
Strict segregation by sex in prisons has not become a problem because of recent advances in Passing Tech. It's become a problem because trans rights activists have ideologically captured private and public policymakers, with a mix of propaganda and extortion, that inclines them to deprecate strict segregation policies.
Etc.
Men who successfully pass have never been the problem. Up until recently, men who successfully pass have been the solution. But that solution doesn't work for all men. It doesn't solve for the men who aren't blessed with an androgynous physiognomy. It doesn't solve for the men who can't afford the plastic surgery necessary to allay suspicion. It doesn't solve for the men who want the entitlement but not the effort. It doesn't solve for men who want the entitlement in sports and prisons, where passing is not an option.
And that's why strict segregation has become a problem. Because passing isn't an option for every man, so they've been going after strict segregation policies instead.
Anyway, here's my proposed solution:
- Private sex-segregated entities (sports leagues, spas, etc.) should be entitled by law to screen out men by whatever means they find practical for their business.
- Public sex-segregated entities should legally empower citizens to evict non-passing individuals whenever they are detected.
As for non-passing men who want the entitlement anyway, I propose a different solution: The same as for pedophilia: Get professional help for your tragic condition. Get absolutely wrecked if you ever try it on.
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No it doesn't.
When you're considering policies which are designed to protect vulnerable individuals, you look at the worst case, not the average.
I personally find it to be quite a significant issue if female employees are pressured by their employers to undress in front of male colleagues and be in the presence of male colleagues undressing, and subjected to bullying and sanctions if they object. I thought we established that workplace sexual harassment is wrong some decades ago.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
No, you haven't.
That was my question, and you haven't really been addressing it... you've been more just waffling around the edges.
Back in the day, transvestites (I use that term to distinguish them from modern-day transgender identified males) were quietly tolerated in women's toilets. You pretty much never saw them trying to get into any other women's safe spaces such as rape crisis centres or women's shelters, and with a few exceedingly rare exceptions, you didn't see them in women's sports. They were certainly never housed in women's prisons if they committed crimes or in women's hospitals if they needed medical treatment.
The reason for the change has nothing to do with technology, or numbers of people... Transgender identified males cannot pass any easier now than they could in the past. What has happened is the the rise of bat-crap lunatic gender ideology that has been the issue. The idea that a man becomes a woman, merely on his own say so - followed by a bunch of left wing, bleeding hearts in universities and academic establishments latching onto this ideology, and then opportunistic left wing politicians who have jumped on that bandwagon and helped spread the ideology.
I feel genuinely sorry for those old-time transvestites who used to just get on with their lives and weren't bothering anyone, but who have now been involuntarily and unwillingly thrust into the spotlight by a bunch of selfish, mean-spirited activist scumbags who have made life much more difficult for them.
As someone who leans left, and has more liberal values than conservative ones, I feel like my party has become anti-science and anti-reality. It's left me rather than the other way around.
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smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
This doesn't just apply in the employer/employee relationship. It also applies to...
- female athletes being presured by their governing bodies to undress in front of male colleagues and be in the presence of male colleagues undressing, and subjected to bullying and sanctions if they object.
- women's in general being pressured accept males in their safe spaces, and subjected to bullying and sanctions if they object.
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
You're packing an awful lot into the etcetera here, after explicitly mentioning two special cases (non-rec sports leagues and jails/prisons) where we ought to know the birth sex of participants, whether via testing or documentation. I say "special cases" here because (without even running a survey) I'd be willing to bet that most ISF posters have spent relatively little time in either setting.
Where we actually encounter sex segregation in everyday life are more common settings such as public restrooms, dressing rooms, locker rooms, etc. and in those everyday honor system settings Passing Tech™ really will make it impossible to go back to the before times, when men were men and women were women.
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
Imma look at the policies actually being promulgated if that's cool—or even if not.
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Ziggurat
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Ok. But again, that's not the problem. The current conflict is not due to trans people who pass going into bathrooms where they don't technically belong but nobody knows that because they pass.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Examples of this "Passing Tech"?
Ziggurat
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Extensive cosmetic surgery and hormones. Some people manage it. Most don't. The conflict isn't about the ones who do.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Cosmetic surgery has been around since early last century so nothing new - certainly very little difference in sex-change capability between now and the 1980s.
As for hormones, they don't help a male pass for female... they don't change the facial structure, they won't undo male puberty (that's a bell that cannot be unrung) and they wonlt change the waist/hips shape. Increasing your hormone intake will kill you before it helps you pass for a women.
p0lka
Illuminator
I think that 1 sex should be able to have privacy from the other sex in spaces labelled as such, so Peggie was entitled to complain about males being there.Reading back the LIVE updates from the Sandie Peggie v NHS Fife employment tribunal has been a hilarious experience - shall we say, "most popcorn-worthy". It has been highly entertaining watching some witnesses (various ideologically-captured members of NHS Fife staff) desperately professing ignorance of reality in their efforts to dog-pile on nurse Peggie in pathetic and failed attempts to execute a hatchet job on her, and paint her as a hateful bigot (every one of those efforts missed its mark).
First they accuse her of racism, referring to Upton's statement that she had made racist remarks to a black doctor, yet the black doctor in question has no recollection of nurse Peggie saying any of the things that Upton claims she said.... Oops!
Then they accuse her of homophobia - a laughable accusation to level at someone who has a gay daughter.... a daughter who calls her mum "her best friend" Oops2
It seems Dr Upton is a fantasist, prone to pulling lies out of his sphincter when he fails to get his own way. This is unsurprising given that he is a 6ft 2in, 200lb, 28 year old man who pretends to be a woman, and wants to invade women's changing rooms so he can get undressed in front of them. He feels "threatened" by a 5ft 4in, 96 lb 50 year old woman. Poor widdle snowflake!
One of the witnesses on the stand today was Dr Kate Searle, a consultant physician in A&E where nurse Peggie worked.
To give a sense of how thoroughly captured by gender ideology this woman is, I offer the following exchange...
Ms Cunningham (nurse Peggie's lawyer) then goes into the conversation between Ms Peggie and Dr Upton on Dr Upton’s chromosomes.
NHS Fife’s lawyer objects to this as “Dr Upton is not obviously a man”.
Ms Cunningham then asks Dr Searle: “Dr Upton is obviously male, isn’t he?” Dr Searle said “no”.
The lawyer then said: “You are telling the tribunal, and bearing in mind you’re giving evidence under oath and your credibility is quite important, you’re telling the tribunal you wouldn’t know Dr Upton was a trans woman had he not told you?”
Dr Searle said: “I would not have known what sex Dr Upton was assigned at birth.”
Ms Peggie’s lawyers are now asking Dr Searle to consider a similar situation in the changing room with a hypothetical man, who was born male and identifies as male, called Pete. Ms Cunningham has asked previous witnesses this question.
NHS Fife’s lawyer objects to this because “Dr Upton is not a man”.
The judge allows the line of questioning and Ms Cunningham asks Dr Searle to agree with her that a man going into the changing rooms is “strikingly menacing behaviour”. She agrees.
Ms Cunningham then said: “It follows then that if the tribunal thinks there is no relevant difference between the hypothetical male Pete and Dr Upton, then Sandie was fully in her rights to say ‘go away, you have no business here’.”
Dr Searle said she did not agree with this.
It astonishing these people are able to say this stuff with a straight face - such is their level of ideological capture. I wouldn't be able to be in that courtroom with out being kicked out. I simply would not be able to stop laughing out loud.
For reference, this is what Upton looks like. On the left, what he actually looks like, on the right, what he looks like after he has tarted himself up in womanface.
Seriously, Upton is so obviously a man cosplaying as a women, that if Dr Searle is unable to easily discern this fact, she has serious judgement and credibility issues.
But, do you have any dates for those photos you posted? Is the one on the left earlier than the one on the right? If so then you're being seriously dishonest with your statements. Everything you posted is just covered with slimy bias, it's not hard to just post data without all that slime.
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Ziggurat
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It's better now, but that's not what's changed. So in case it's not clear, I'm basically in agreement with you, but was explaining what d4m10n's point was, not agreeing with him.
They can if administered before puberty finishes. Which creates its own separate problems, and isn't a major part of the access problem.
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
Again (again) there's not only one problem worth discussing which is on topic here. We should feel free to discuss the easily solved problems with clear-cut solutions (such as elite sports and federal prisons) but also much harder problems such as public accommodations which we all encounter on a regular basis and which directly effect a vastly larger slice of the population.
In the United States, the current solution to the "current problem" is called Executive Order 14168WP, and it requires those "trans people who pass" to go back to using the single-sex spaces in which they do not pass because those intimate spaces are henceforth "designated by sex and not identity." We don't get to wave this problem away on account of passing status because federal employees are legally required to follow executive orders, and we probably shouldn't assume that it won't make some folks lives a fair bit worse.
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Ziggurat
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How to handle non-passing trans people is the primary problem. It's why this thread exists. Your hypothetical problem might be worth discussing, but it's not why the thread exists. It really doesn't matter nearly as much. But you seem to think they're on equal footing, even though they aren't.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
FYI...AIUI
The photo on the left was taken after he graduated from the Dundee School of Medicine in July 2020.
He went under the name Elisabeth Ruth Annikki Upton during his time at medical school, but did not begin his physical transition until early 2022
He was registered as a doctor in August 2022, and started started work at the Fife hospital in the A&E department in August 2023.
Sandie Peggie claimed to have first seen Dr. Beth Upton in a female changing room in August 2023, and raised the matter with her line manager. At the time, he still looked much like he does in the left photo, but he had shaved off his beard. However, the real trouble happened on Christmas Eve 2023 (its clear his behaviour started being problematic right from the first few days in his emplyment there).
The photo on the right was taken more recently, around the time the tribunal started in February 2025. Its clear he has tarted himself up in an attempt to better look the part. That's a fail if ever there was one.
But none of this matters anyway... The tide has been turning rapidly ever since the Supreme Court made a ruling that returned the law to what it always was before, representing the scientific reality that sex is binary, based on biological reality, and not on whatever girly feels a man has today. The sooner this infestation of gender ideology is purged from all walks of life, the better.
Oh, and frankly, anyone who looks at this photo of Upton...
... and can't immediately tell this is a bloke making a pathetic attempt at womanface, has a serious flaw in their ability judge human appearance.
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theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
I'm pretty sure he's talking about some hypothetical future Sci fi tech.
I was using it as a flippant shorthand for the current, inadequate, state of the art.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
It has been entertaining to say the least, "watching" NHS bosses and managers on the stand looking like pretzels trying to win a game of "Twister" Its no wonder they fought tooth and nail in a failed attempt to have the tribunal held in secret. They knew they were going to have to make fools of themselves and didn't want the public or their friends and families to see the farcical nature of their belief systems.
There's also this bit that was hilarious to read....
◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ Brilliant!!
There's also this bit that was hilarious to read....
NHS Fife’s lawyer Jane Russell has interjected after Ms Glancy used the pronoun “he” when referring to Dr Upton Ms Glancy quickly corrected herself and said “sorry, she”.
This comes after Ms Peggie’s lawyer Naomi Cunningham used the pronoun “he” in her question to Ms Glancy. She has consistently referred to Dr Upton as a man and used he/him pronouns throughout the tribunal, which was discussed yesterday.
Ms Russell said: “I want to raise concerns about the consistent misgendering. I have checked the equal treatment benchmark from May 2025 which says we should use an individual's preferred pronouns or alternatively the gender neutral ‘they’ to help minimise offence.”
She added: “You should use the pronouns that are preferred - there is an exception if it is a biological male attack but that is not the case here, no one has physically attacked anyone, especially Dr Upton attacking Ms Peggie. I am concerned about the fairness of the proceedings with Ms Cunningham’s misgendering which is creating a hostile environment for the witnesses and is confusing them. They are not used to hearing Dr Upton being referred to with the pronouns he/him and it is clearly discombobulating this witness and affecting her ability to give her best evidence.”
She asks for her concerns to be noted and “makes a plea to Ms Cunningham to reflect on her language and duty of civility in the court”.
The judge asks Ms Cunningham if she has anything to say about this or wants time to reflect. She says no and continues her cross-examination using the pronouns he/him for Dr Upton.
She listens to the rant by the NHS lawyer, making no comments, then carries on doing precisely what she was doing before.◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ Brilliant!!