Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Ziggurat]

Man is a gender label.

How is that different than being explicitly a gender label? Seriously, I don't get it.

Adding specific words to create a false dichotomy

I don't even understand what this dichotomy you're referring to is between.

 

[theprestige]

Man is a gender label.

So argue some people. Others disagree, and continue to use it to refer to sex. You're buying into the greatest lie ever told by trans rights activists*. It's the TRAs and you that are wrong, not the rest of us.

---

*Not the most horrific lie. That would be the lie that puberty blockers are reversible.

 

[Ziggurat]

Of course they do. Do you think that "rights" get granted to all because some people commit fraud?

Rights get granted to all in this case because fraud is impossible to detect, prevent or punish. And that is by explicit design.

Seriously. Do you think everyone has a right to rob houses?

If you make it impossible to stop people from robbing houses or punish them for doing so, then yes, absolutely, you have given everyone the right to rob houses. But that would be absurd to do that, wouldn't it? Nobody would ever be so foolish.

But that's what self ID does.

 

[Thermal]

I've seen this joke before.

Me: Under self-ID, what would happen if, you know, you claimed you were trans?
You: No, I cannot do this.
Me: Yeah, I know, but what if, I know you're not supposed to, but what if, what if you did?
You: No, I cannot claim to be trans, I am not trans.
Me: Yeah man, but you know, late one night you just, hell, you enter a women's bathroom and say you're trans.
You: IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO ENTER A WOMEN'S BATHROOM IF YOU AREN'T TRANS!

I can commit multiple kinds of fraud against others in violation of laws. That doesn't mean I have been given the right to.

 

[Thermal]

Rights get granted to all in this case because fraud is impossible to detect, prevent or punish. And that is by explicit design.

If you make it impossible to stop people from robbing houses or punish them for doing so, then yes, absolutely, you have given everyone the right to rob houses. But that would be absurd to do that, wouldn't it? Nobody would ever be so foolish.

But that's what self ID does.

Reports in this very thread indicate that police often declne to accept a trans identity, and refer to their "I'm totally trans" perpetrator as "he".

You're right that you are legally obligated to give the benefit of the doubt. That's likely because real transwomen have endured real abuses for real decades, while your almost wholly imaginary Beavis and Butthead trans- imposters don't really exist. But I think you are very much mistaken that selfID is a magic get out of men's jail free card.

 

[Thermal]

I don't give a good goddamned how some males refer to themselves, they're still males. And since they are still males of the human species, the term "men" is appropriate.

Don't ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ split hairs based on coercive language - see the thread title if you need an idea of where this is coming from.

I didn't say males. I said men. And I shouldn't have to demonstrate yet again that the word has more than one meaning to you. Unless you want to go back to classifying human women's nomenclature on par with barnyard livestock? You were doing that again quite recently.

 

[Thermal]

Most of the houses I grew up in had vents in the ceiling for A/C and registers in the floor or baseboards for heat. That's what my family called them.

According to google, vents can't be closed or directed, registers can. Did not know that.

I had hot water baseboard radiators and no A/C till I got married, so I didn't call them anything .

Since then, I've been in construction, and use the appropriate terms. Vents have fixed louvers, and registers, as you say, are directional.

I also have homeowners calling boilers 'furnaces' and A/C condensers "compressors", and anything made of framing lumber a "beam". We all translate and communicate. It just sounded odd to hear a non-professional calling registers by their proper name.

 

[d4m10n]

It's all supposition, including on the part of the IOC.

That depends on whether the report leaked by Le Correspondant is real or not, at least from where I'm sitting. Snopes has a decent summary of much of the relevant documentary evidence, which they characterize as "consistent with, but not confirmation of, a deficiency in alpha 5 reductase type 2, as described in the unverified medical reports."

I think the most likely scenario is that Khelif has 5-ARD

Agreed.

For a nation dominated by Sunni Islam, none of the male coaches and entourage actually *treat* Khelif as if they're female.

I suppose that is sort of an indirect argument that they have socially transitioned from female to male, which is difficult for me to wrap my head around given the cultural context. I suppose winning matters most, sometimes.

 

[Ziggurat]

Reports in this very thread indicate that police often declne to accept a trans identity

Not everywhere operates under self-ID. What happens when something other than self-ID is used doesn't really say much about self-ID. This should be obvious, yet apparently it isn't.

You're right that you are legally obligated to give the benefit of the doubt. That's likely because real transwomen have endured real abuses for real decades, while your almost wholly imaginary Beavis and Butthead trans- imposters don't really exist.

You have been provided with many examples of such "imposters". Your continued denial of their existence is quite bizarre.

 

[theprestige]

That depends on whether the report leaked by Le Correspondant is real or not, at least from where I'm sitting. Snopes has a decent summary of much of the relevant documentary evidence, which they characterize as "consistent with, but not confirmation of, a deficiency in alpha 5 reductase type 2, as described in the unverified medical reports."

Agreed.

I suppose that is sort of an indirect argument that they have socially transitioned from female to male, which is difficult for me to wrap my head around given the cultural context. I suppose winning matters most, sometimes.

Yes. Which is exactly why Our Hero got railroaded by his government even after their error was known.

I don't necessarily blame him for going along with it, but I do blame his government for putting him in such a situation, and I blame the IOC for allowing enabling such dishonesty.

 

[Thermal]

How exactly does your wide open state determine who is truthful in their out-loud declaration of belief, and who is not? Is this method available to everyone and easily applicable across the board?

I'll let you know if and when that slippery slope problem arises. It hasn't yet, after many years in a state of many millions. You could ask Mass and the others, too. Same answer.

In what way are transwomen NOT male human beings?

I didnt say they weren't. It would be nice if youd stop rewriting my posts.

What do transgender identified males share in common with human females that (1) they do NOT share in common with human males and (2) can be objectively verified by an unbiased observer?

I don't use slurs for transwomen so it's kind of an unanswerable question, without saying I agree with your derogatory terminology for them.

But if we drop the slurs (which would be good form anyway, as you guys have claimed to be ever so offended by derogatory language:

1) the belief that they are women, not men

2) I am not the Penis Police and don't know their methods. As a regular old civilian, forcing people to prove who they are to use the bathroom doesn't come up, day to day. YMMV.

 

[p0lka]

So argue some people. Others disagree, and continue to use it to refer to sex.

Well the ones that argue that are not really paying any attention to real life societal things that are happening at this present time.

You're buying into the greatest lie ever told by trans rights activists*. It's the TRAs and you that are wrong, not the rest of us.

---

*Not the most horrific lie. That would be the lie that puberty blockers are reversible.

Don't get me started about puberty blockers, I've made my position clear years ago in this thread.

I'm not buying into any lie on any side, be it tra or jref or isf or whatever, EDIT: it seems this thread is just very irrational sometimes.

 

[Thermal]

Not everywhere operates under self-ID. What happens when something other than self-ID is used doesn't really say much about self-ID. This should be obvious, yet apparently it isn't.

It's not obvious. Further, that middle bit is nonsensical.

You have been provided with many examples of such "imposters". Your continued denial of their existence is quite bizarre.

I haven't been provided with anything. The Wi spa guy was referred to as a "he" by police, despite his IDsaying he was a woman, and was charged for his lewd behavior, iirc, and we still don't know how he got in or even what the terms of transperson spa usage were and if he actually violated them. The spa openly accommodated transpeople, but never said exactly how.

Your oft cited Bryson was denied transhood acknowledgement by the government. In my own state, prisoners don't get to choose accommodations with magic words.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Years ago before I stopped participating in this thread I posted a few examples in the news of men hiding themselves away in the ... erm 'storage' part of women's portable toilets to peep (this not being a trans issue or behavior, by the way). If some pervert men are willing to endure that environment to see a few bare butts, how many more would be willing to simply incant the magic phrase "I identify as ..." to get full VIP access?

Again, the largest single problem in the entire issue being, IMO, fiat self-ID.

Pretty much. Most males aren't pervs, that's happily conceded. Hell, females everywhere rely on the fact that most males aren't pervs. But to take a position that implicitly requires that no males at all are pervs is just... I dunno... willfully obtuse? What's the right description here?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Of course they do. Do you think that "rights" get granted to all because some people commit fraud?

Seriously. Do you think everyone has a right to rob houses? Some people do, you know. That doesnt mean that the right has been given for everyone to rob houses, yet thats exactly what you assert.

Okay, let's run with this. Nobody has a right to rob houses, conceded. Some people rob houses though, granted.

Do you think it makes sense to create public policy that prohibits people from locking their doors, on the premise that nobody has a right to rob houses?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I can commit multiple kinds of fraud against others in violation of laws. That doesn't mean I have been given the right to.

When you make it impossible for anyone to take actions to PREVENT fraud from occurring, and you make it impossible to PUNISH those who commit fraud... you have in effect made fraud a legal right for anyone who wishes to commit it.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I didn't say males. I said men. And I shouldn't have to demonstrate yet again that the word has more than one meaning to you. Unless you want to go back to classifying human women's nomenclature on par with barnyard livestock? You were doing that again quite recently.

To me, the word men in this context means males of the human species. It does NOT include any females of the human species. I refuse to play humpty dumpty games that swap out literal and figurative meanings on a whim.

 

[Thermal]

Okay, let's run with this. Nobody has a right to rob houses, conceded. Some people rob houses though, granted.

Do you think it makes sense to create public policy that prohibits people from locking their doors, on the premise that nobody has a right to rob houses?

I don't think the analogy (which is limited toa specific element, as all analogies are) extends to mechanics. Watch:

So by your analogy extension, all restroom doors would be locked? How would anyone get in?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I suppose that is sort of an indirect argument that they have socially transitioned from female to male, which is difficult for me to wrap my head around given the cultural context. I suppose winning matters most, sometimes.

I'm not sure if you inadvertently dropped the word "not" out of this... but I infer from the many, many, many video and photo instances of male coaches and entourage putting their arms around Khelif, lifting them onto their shoulders legs spread, and other means of physical interaction that are usually avoided under Sunni Islam... that Khelif has not *actually* socially transitioned, and that every single one of them knows full well that Khelif is a male.

 

[Ziggurat]

Your oft cited Bryson was denied transhood acknowledgement by the government. In my own state, prisoners don't get to choose accommodations with magic words.

Both examples of not using self ID. And that's your defense of self ID?