Rolfe
Adult human female
Pedant mode on: Equality Act
Sorry, I always get this mixed up. I should have looked it up.
Transwomen are not Women - Part 15
- Thread starter d4m10n
- Start date
Sorry, I always get this mixed up. I should have looked it up.
angrysoba
Philosophile
Not sure, but looking I assume that some people are more than mere volunteers. Volunteering is a grass-roots thing. But there are all kinds of people involved liasing with local authorities, as you might expect given that they make use of public parks, record keeping, maintaining the website, creating the flags and high-vis vests and the merch.
Rolfe
Adult human female
If there is nothing in place to monitor the categories, even if there is a direct complaint that someone has entered a category they're not entitled to enter, there is no point in having categories.
That isn't actually the issue though. The issue is that Parkrun has actively decided not to monitor the categories. That's what it comes down to. Anyone can have any gender identity they fancy at any given time, so announcing that the category goes by gender identity is in practice no different from announcing that anyone can enter the category. It's a pointless category. It's labelled "female" but it isn't. That is deceptive, so of course women are going to be disgruntled.
That isn't actually the issue though. The issue is that Parkrun has actively decided not to monitor the categories. That's what it comes down to. Anyone can have any gender identity they fancy at any given time, so announcing that the category goes by gender identity is in practice no different from announcing that anyone can enter the category. It's a pointless category. It's labelled "female" but it isn't. That is deceptive, so of course women are going to be disgruntled.
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
You have (yet again) shifted your focus from argument to arguer; I see no reason to suppose Novella was being dishonest.
Having testes with functional Sertoli cells should count as more than zero male reproductive features.
We don't generally say to females that they ought to have their gonads surgically removed for the sake of routine preventative care, so I'm not sure if I buy that last bit, at least not until the standard of care fully comes around to watchful waiting. That said, I completely agree with your insight that it matters why we are sorting in the first place. Sports science might come up with a different answer than, say, fertility medicine.
Which of the two developmental pathways usually does this part?
What if I'm looking for a much more common disorder that needs to be considered by anyone attempting to engineer a firm binary for the sake of some given policy?
I've already shown upthread how Trump's EO purporting to specifically address trans issues literally deleted mention of intersex individuals from official websites and guidance, in a misguided attempt to pretend that a strictly binary approach won't miss anything worth addressing. So long as intersex people are taking splash damage from anti-trans policies, the two issues will continue to be inextricably entwined.
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Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
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I see lots of reasons to suppose Novella is being honest. But more to the point, I'm seeing reasons to suppose that you are being dishonest. Because YOU keep conflating DSD with trans issues.
DSD people are taking splash damage because they're become a prop for the trans advocates. The conflation that I keep telling you not to do is what put them in the crossfire in the first place. You're not helping them, you're exploiting them.
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
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I cannot think of any policy of sex segregation where CAIS individuals should not be classified as female. Seems like you're making this harder than it needs to be.
p0lka
Illuminator
I have been consistent in my views and posting about them, where have I moved a goalpost?
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Nobody is this confused.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
It doesn't matter how many times you repeat the same incorrect statements, they are still incorrect.
Less than1% of the global general population are transgender. About 0.02% of the global general population have DSD. The Venn diagram intersect of people who have both is exceedingly minuscule, around 0.0000018% - less than 150 people world wide
People with DSD are NOT the same as people who are transgender; there is no correlation between the two - as @Ziggurat rightly says, conflating the two is dishonest.
ETA: Oh, and Steven Novella is also dishonest - Darth Traitorous has truly turned to the Dark Side.
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angrysoba
Philosophile
I don't think that's exactly true. In this thread we have talked about Castor Semenya and those boxers. Pretty sure there is a good case for saying they are DSD, and yet it was considered perfectly cromulent to refer to them as transgender in this thread.
A bit hyperbolic.
Even if you disagree with Novella, and I think he is wrong here, calling him a "traitor" is a bit mad.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
It's not the DSD that makes them trans. It's them knowing they are biologically male and wanting to compete as women that makes them trans.
And as I am quite fond of saying, the debate about trans rights in public policy would be very different, if it were actually about finding the right sex-segregated accommodations for confused DSDs.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Exactly! Those who dishonestly conflate the two fail to understand that DSD is a group of physical medical conditions in which sex development is atypical, whereas transgenderism is an ideology that has been hugely exacerbated by society celebrating a mental illness instead of treating it
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
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While I'm against Transgender athletes competing against biological females, I don't give a damn about the other stuff.
What staggers me the most about this subject is how much many of you care. It affects almost none of you. Yet this thread dwarfs the participation of threads on subjects that have major impact on lives.
What staggers me the most about this subject is how much many of you care. It affects almost none of you. Yet this thread dwarfs the participation of threads on subjects that have major impact on lives.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
Transgender athletes only affects female athletes. "The other stuff" affects all women to some extent, and especially those who have already been the victims of male sexual predators, for many of whom the fact that there are no longer female only facilities at the club/gym/swimming pool is sufficient for them to self exclude from such places.
As a male, none of it affects you. Giving how uncaring you are about the rights of all women to privacy, dignity and safety, I'm puzzled as to why you care about the female athletes. What is it about that specific instance of males transcending female boundaries that makes it the one even you have a problem with?
Always with the exaggeration.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
At the risk of repeating myself again for the benefit of @acbytesla - some of us ARE affected by this. After both of my daughters had nasty encounters with Trans-Identifed Males (one was threatened in a public toilet, one was accosted in the changing rooms of a public swimming pool). They now self-exclude from all public toilets and the local swimming pools. I have resorted to arming them with pepper spray (in a country where it is illegal to carry pepper spray, and using it in self-defence will attract criminal charges) in case they are compelled to use such facilities in an emergency. I also have granddaughters, and I don't want them to face that risk either.
Also, just wanted to further address this bit while I'm at it...
The issue of men being allowed access to women-only spaces directly affects more than 50% of the population. I will stand up for the rights of all women in my circle of friends and family, to not be required to STFU and not complain or take action when they encounter Trans Identified Males in places where they have no business being.
Also, just wanted to further address this bit while I'm at it...
Have you ever heard the term "I'm Alright Jack"? You should have, because this is what you are advocating - that if we are not directly, personally affected, we somehow don't have a right to have an opinion. Well, here's another term that our British posters might recognize... "Go take a running jump!".
The issue of men being allowed access to women-only spaces directly affects more than 50% of the population. I will stand up for the rights of all women in my circle of friends and family, to not be required to STFU and not complain or take action when they encounter Trans Identified Males in places where they have no business being.
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Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
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One of the weird things about the whole trans situation is how telling the truth has become verboten in many places. On one level, as a male I'm not directly affected by a lot of this stuff. That's a bit of a privilege, but as has been pointed out, that's not really a reason to not care. But on another, any time society starts to deny reality, that's a really unhealthy development. And only a fool would think that's never going to spill over into other areas. So even from a selfish perspective of someone who doesn't have to worry about trans identifying males posing any problems to me, I still have reason to care, and to push back against a culture of lies
And on top of that, I'm not actually a selfish ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊. I just play one on TV.
sinnikal
Critical Thinker
A great many of us have women in our lives. Most of us are concerned about their well-being. Transwomen invading our womens' safe spaces is a major concern for a lot of us.