Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Ziggurat]

A tomboy is explicitly a female that acts like a boy, it's in the label.

Yes, acts like a boy, but is a girl. Which is why boys cannot be tomboys, no matter how they act. Only girls can be tomboys. Because tomboys are girls. By definition.

 

[Ziggurat]

Almost like a (adjective goes next) pretend boy?

No. In general, tomboys do not pretend to be boys.

 

[theprestige]

Almost like a (adjective goes next) pretend boy?

Not even remotely like that.

 

[Elaedith]

UK universities have failed to protect gender-critical academics, from bullying, harassment, and research interference, according to a new report by Alice Sullivan.

Here is a link to the full report, part of the Sullivan Review.

 

[smartcooky]

The ugly side of the coin is that our institutions of higher learning are so addicted to guzzling from the government teat that they'll trade their values for money when they won't trade them for reason or humanity.

Yup, and they are still acknowledging Will Thomas' performances against the women.

UPenn Updates Swimming Records After Title IX Violations, Still Acknowledges Lia Thomas With Special Note

Lia Thomas is still highlighted in UPenn's women's swimming records book.

www.outkick.com

"The UPenn women's swimming record book was updated on July 1 based on the updated URL that contains the date, and Thomas is still listed as a member of the 400m free relay team that set a school record time of 3:17:80 while a special note was added to the bottom of the page.​

​

"NOTE: Competing under eligibility rules in effect at the time, Lia Thomas set program records in the 100, 200 and 500 freestyle during the 2021-22 season," the note reads.​

​

Thomas' roster page on the UPenn athletics website also acknowledges the school record time of 3:17:80 in the 400m free relay team event."​

NO. Those eligibility rules were not in effect at the time, because those rules violated Title IX. Therefore, Thomas was NEVER eligible to compete in the first place. Its not enough to just restore the records and the championships to the women who rightly deserved them. Will Thomas' name needs to be totally erased from the records. It should be like he never existed in the women's categories. Instead, list all his times in the UPenn men's record book..... Oh wait! He won't appear in the men's records, because he was too slow and not good enough.

Its is clear that UPenn have been dragged kicking and screaming into making this decision, and its obvious they still vehemently believe they were correct to allow him to compete.

 

[lionking]

I think it also sets a precedent that misgendering someone is not a priori harmful - undermining the "misgendering is violence" position.

Yes I agree. Which is why this case may end up being appealed to a higher jurisdiction.

 

[d4m10n]

They still develop a reproductive system, even if it is infertile.

My claim was that they were "never on a developmental path to produce either gamete" and you did not show that claim to be incorrect.

A reproductive system which includes "sterile testicular material" is never going to develop any healthy gametes.

Therefore, these individuals cannot be sorted using the gametic binary and we have to include some additional criteria in order to sort them into a male/female binary. It remains unclear to me what those criteria ought to be, but I'm not really trying to force every individual into a binary classification in order to create a unified overarching category of "sex" which takes into account all the various features we associate with sex.

CAIS - assuming it's actually C - end up following a mullerian pathway

This is generally incorrect. Here is the excerpt from the relevant wiki:

The Müllerian system typically regresses the same way it does in unaffected male fetuses due to anti-Müllerian hormone originating from the Sertoli cells of the testes. Thus, people with CAIS, despite having a vagina due to androgen insensitivity, are born without fallopian tubes, a cervix, or a uterus, and the vagina ends "blindly" in a pouch.​

Back to my original question:
Which developmental path are CAIS individuals on in utero?

My answer would be both since they end up with (incomplete) features from both, and you can judge a developmental pathway based on results.

 

[d4m10n]

But he's not actually educating his readers. He is obfuscating.

It is easy to attribute ill motives to someone you oppose, but it's only going to help you if they are indeed arguing in bad faith.

If they are actually arguing in good faith, attributing bad faith is an act of self-obfuscation.

 

[d4m10n]

Similarly, sex in humans (and all mammals in fact) is a very complicated thing too, but like the modern computer, at its core is the male/female binary.

Where would you look to find the core, assuming the task at hand is to sort individual mammals?

 

[theprestige]

My claim was that they were "never on a developmental path to produce either gamete" and you did not show that claim to be incorrect.

A reproductive system which includes "sterile testicular material" is never going to develop any healthy gametes.

Therefore, these individuals cannot be sorted using the gametic binary and we have to include some additional criteria in order to sort them into a male/female binary. It remains unclear to me what those criteria ought to be, but I'm not really trying to force every individual into a binary classification in order to create a unified overarching category of "sex" which takes into account all the various features we associate with sex.


This is generally incorrect. Here is the excerpt from the relevant wiki:

The Müllerian system typically regresses the same way it does in unaffected male fetuses due to anti-Müllerian hormone originating from the Sertoli cells of the testes. Thus, people with CAIS, despite having a vagina due to androgen insensitivity, are born without fallopian tubes, a cervix, or a uterus, and the vagina ends "blindly" in a pouch.​

Back to my original question:
Which developmental path are CAIS individuals on in utero?

My answer would be both since they end up with (incomplete) features from both, and you can judge a developmental pathway based on results.

By the time you get to sterile testicular material, you're already far down one of the two paths. Of which there are two and only two.

 

[Ziggurat]

It is easy to attribute ill motives to someone you oppose,

I don't really care about his motives, that's still the result. I have already detailed why, you have not even touched upon that.

 

[d4m10n]

By the time you get to sterile testicular material, you're already far down one of the two paths. Of which there are two and only two.

You chose male path, @Emily's Cat went with female path.

My point is that the developmental path is actually ambiguous in such cases, which would explain why you two are coming up with opposite answers.

 

[smartcooky]

You chose male path, @Emily's Cat went with female path.

My point is that the developmental path is actually ambiguous in such cases, which would explain why you two are coming up with opposite answers.

Nope... to paraphrase a famous song lyric
"Yes there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run.
There's no time to change the road you're on"

If development follows the Mullerian pathway, the individual develops as a female
If development follows the Wollfian pathway, the individual develops as a male.

There is NO developmental pathway that leads to a sex other than female or male, therefore, sex is binary.

 

[Rolfe]

Oh for crying out loud. (Read the thread if you can.)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1833380251520360810

What is it with these dangerous weirdos being given awards rather than having their hard drives checked?

 

[Rolfe]

I notice that Parkrun calls it's female category "female", not "women", but males for some reason still enter.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1940709039513784781

 

[smartcooky]

Oh for crying out loud. (Read the thread if you can.)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1833380251520360810

What is it with these dangerous weirdos being given awards rather than having their hard drives checked?

If they had their hard drives checked, the truth about some of these people might come out.... can't be having that now, can we?

 

[Ziggurat]

I notice that Parkrun calls its female category "female", not "women", but males for some reason still enter.

Will this finally convince p0lka?

 

[Elaedith]

The entire basis of the gender identity movement is that sex is a self-chosen identity (even though this makes no sense as it is circular). Activists may have started off arguing that sex and gender are different, but they soon abandoned that once they realised it still allows segregation by sex.

 

[lionking]

I’m not sure Parkrun is an important issue at all. I’ve been a Parkrunner and I don’t think anyone gives a toss about who wins. To me it’s always been about individual times. I’ve won in my age bracket and I don’t know who else came second and what gender they reported. It’s something that’s social and should not be treated seriously.

College and other competitive sports competitions are a different matter altogether.

 

[angrysoba]

I’m not sure Parkrun is an important issue at all. I’ve been a Parkrunner and
I don’t think anyone gives a toss about who wins. To me it’s always been about individual times. I’ve won in my age bracket and I don’t know who else came second and what gender they reported. It’s something that’s social and should not be treated seriously.

College and other competitive sports competitions are a different matter altogether.

Some people definitely do - I think Mara Yamauchi in particular. There have been some incidents at Parkruns between anti-trans activists and volunteers over allowing transgender runners.

Parkrun director tells ex-Olympian to 'F*** OFF' in transgender row

Former British Olympic runner Mara Yamauchi has been branded a 'bigoted bully' and told to 'f*** off' by a Parkrun director in a furious row about trans women competing in the event's female category.

www.dailymail.co.uk

It may be that some transgender runners have been trying to get as many course records as possible in the female category.

But, honestly, the Parkruns that I have been to are friendly events that do people good by encouraging the community to be active.

I think it would be a shame if it became a new battleground for toxic culture wars.

It's one thing to have cheek swabs at international athletic events, and another one to have people trying to demand that transgender runners not be allowed to compete in Parkrun.