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Ed Israel/US Attacks Iran /Yet Another Country/Iran

Israel has also, never that I'm aware of, threatened anyone with their nukes to get their way.
There's also the possibility that Israel doesn't actually have nukes, or has them but they won't actually work. In which case their "neither confirm nor deny" position makes sense. If they don't actually have the means to nuke anyone it might be sensible to never actually threaten to, or else someone might call their bluff!
 
What does anyone else reading this think? Am I engaging in pro-Israeli "spin" with my posts in this thread?

That's one way to go about it. Hardly conclusive. But then again, what else is there?


When has that ever worked? The only way you're getting the last word is to flounce.

Hadn't meant it in those terms, at all. I'm sorry you're reading it that way. I'd literally meant it in precisely the terms I said it in. By all means, have the last word, as many of them as you like --- and I don't say this with sarcasm, or irritation even. Cheers
 
Israel has also, never that I'm aware of, threatened anyone with their nukes to get their way. That is the most plausible problem with Iran getting nukes is they will use them as a bargaining chip to be allowed to do whatever evil ◊◊◊◊ they want while inferring a nice nuclear retaliation if they don't get their way. The 2nd most plausible scenario is them smuggling one to the Houthi's, Hezzbolah etc.
pretty much no Nation has threatened to use its nukes for anything but retaliation., or to blunt an imminent nuclear attack.
But Israel has a history of unilaterally attacking other nations who do not pose an imminent threat to it.
 
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pretty much no Nation has threatened to use its nukes for anything but retaliation., or to blunt an imminent nuclear attack.
But Israel has a history of unilaterally attacking other nations who do not pose an imminent threat to it.
Russia has insinuated several times they will if NATO intervenes in Ukraine.

ETA: For some reason much of the developed world thinks like you do. How dare Israel directly attack Iran, when Iran only attacks them through proxies. Its hogswallop.
 
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Russia has insinuated several times they will if NATO intervenes in Ukraine.

ETA: For some reason much of the developed world thinks like you do. How dare Israel directly attack Iran, when Iran only attacks them through proxies. Its hogswallop.
Israel supports terrorists groups that attack Iran. Israel (mossad) has commited terrorist acts in Iran. Israel has directly attacked Iran over many years. This is not something that has just happened. Hezbollah only formed after the Israeli invasion of Lebanon and the massacre of Shia civilians by IDF proxy forces as a self defence force and to resist the occupation of Lebanon by Israel. So Israel has attacked Iran directly and indirectly via proxies for many years.

Both can be regarded as bad actors. It is clear however which country has killed directly and indirectly more people.
 
What does anyone else reading this think? Am I engaging in pro-Israeli "spin" with my posts in this thread?
A bit, yeah. You're only repeating the half of the truth you like and waiting for people to spoonfeed you.

It shouldn't have taken much from where you are to conclude that even if someone you don't want getting nukes is likely to get them, bombing the crap out of them to stop it is a bad idea. It sends the message to them and every other tinpot dictator that nukes are the only thing Western nations will respect, diplomacy won't mean ◊◊◊◊ the second you have something they want. And it's an especially bad idea to send that message and ◊◊◊◊ it up as badly as we did, although I'm sure Ziggurat and theprestige are going to fall over themselves talking about how a setback of weeks to months is acktually the bigliest strategic victory ever. [ETA] And I'm just seeing there was an intercepted call between Iranian government members surprised at how little damage we did.

Moreover, it should only take a bit of digging into why we had to do the strikes now to conclude it probably has more to do with Bibi Netanyahu retaining control of the Israeli government (and postponing his three ongoing criminal corruption trials, which he is widely expected to lose), than it has to do with anything Iran had been up to. They've been enriching for years now, ever since Trump tore up the agreement for them not to. Nothing has changed on their end. If getting rid of the centrifuges was important enough to attack a sovereign nation it should have been done before they enriched and squirreled away enough uranium to finish their development in private.

Then, you've repeatedly cited Israel not nuking anyone as a moral point in their favor, while ignoring a history and current events in Gaza of treating the Geneva conventions as naive guidelines to be sneered at. I will agree that Iran getting a nuke is legit very dangerous, but IMO it's not that Iran will use it, but that Israel will strike preemptively. And they'll ◊◊◊◊ it up, of course, because their intelligence will definitively indicate Iran is keeping its nuke under the largest children's hospital in Tehran, and then all hell will break loose.
 
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And it's an especially bad idea to send that message and ◊◊◊◊ it up as badly as we did
This is a rather odd assertion. On what basis do you claim that we ◊◊◊◊◊◊ it up?
, although I'm sure Ziggurat and theprestige are going to fall over themselves talking about how a setback of weeks to months is acktually the bigliest strategic victory ever.
The leaked initial DIA report is worthless. The IAEA chief recently made reference to a short time period, but what he said isn't what you're claiming, and it was speculation anyways. This is essentially an ass pull.
Moreover, it should only take a bit of digging into why we had to do the strikes now to conclude it probably has more to do with Bibi Netanyahu retaining control of the Israeli government (and postponing his three ongoing criminal corruption trials, which he is widely expected to lose), than it has to do with anything Iran had been up to.
That's stupid. The most obvious reason to do it now is that Iran's air defense is currently crippled, making a bombing run lower risk now than it ever has before.
They've been enriching for years now, ever since Trump tore up the agreement for them not to. Nothing has changed on their end. If getting rid of the centrifuges was important enough to attack a sovereign nation it should have been done before they enriched and squirreled away enough uranium to finish their development in private.
True enough. Not really an argument for not doing it now, though.
 
A bit, yeah. You're only repeating the half of the truth you like and waiting for people to spoonfeed you.

It shouldn't have taken much from where you are to conclude that even if someone you don't want getting nukes is likely to get them, bombing the crap out of them to stop it is a bad idea.
Is it a bad idea? I would say that could only be determined by the results afterward. We can only wait and see what happens. But whether it turns out to have been a bad idea (from the perspective of Israel) or not it doesn't really change what I posted, does it? You're not objecting to my assertion that Israel hasn't used nukes, you're complaining because I didn't rush to find a bad thing to say about Israel to balance out that good thing. Not saying something bad about Israel is hardly supporting it.

It sends the message to them and every other tinpot dictator that nukes are the only thing Western nations will respect, diplomacy won't mean ◊◊◊◊ the second you have something they want. And it's an especially bad idea to send that message and ◊◊◊◊ it up as badly as we did, although I'm sure Ziggurat and theprestige are going to fall over themselves talking about how a setback of weeks to months is acktually the bigliest strategic victory ever. [ETA] And I'm just seeing there was an intercepted call between Iranian government members surprised at how little damage we did.
I think international relations are more complex than that. Simply taking action, even if it wasn't very effective, might itself convey a message. The US has just demonstrated that its willing to get directly involved, that's got to be significant. Although undoubtedly the fact that it was done by the whimsy of a senile maniac might play a role in interpretation of the action.

Moreover, it should only take a bit of digging into why we had to do the strikes now to conclude it probably has more to do with Bibi Netanyahu retaining control of the Israeli government (and postponing his three ongoing criminal corruption trials, which he is widely expected to lose), than it has to do with anything Iran had been up to. They've been enriching for years now, ever since Trump tore up the agreement for them not to. Nothing has changed on their end. If getting rid of the centrifuges was important enough to attack a sovereign nation it should have been done before they enriched and squirreled away enough uranium to finish their development in private.
That's possible, of course. It's also possible that Iran really was close to nukes. Or both could be true. I tend to distrust assumptions that complex events arise from a single cause only.

I'm not in a position to know the truth on these things, and I seriously doubt anybody else posting here is, either. Some people like to proceed on assertions and guesswork, and argue from those things as if they were certain known facts. I'm not much interested in that approach.

Then, you've repeatedly cited Israel not nuking anyone as a moral point in their favor,
I cited it once, then defended that citation as it was repeatedly challenged. Hardly a campaign of propaganda there.

while ignoring a history and current events in Gaza of treating the Geneva conventions as naive guidelines to be sneered at.

I'm not much interested in talking about the Gaza stuff, that's being covered in another thread. Hence I didn't bring it up. I don't think it's relevant to my point about Israel's non-use of nukes. Unless like the other poster you think it's incumbent on everyone to balance anything said that's good about Israel with something bad.

I will agree that Iran getting a nuke is legit very dangerous, but IMO it's not that Iran will use it, but that Israel will strike preemptively. And they'll ◊◊◊◊ it up, of course, because their intelligence will definitively indicate Iran is keeping its nuke under the largest children's hospital in Tehran, and then all hell will break loose.
How about this: we'll talk about hypothetical future scenarios once they've evolved into being actual past events. It's easier because there will be so many fewer events to talk about if we limit ourselves to the ones that actually happened.
 
Is it a bad idea? I would say that could only be determined by the results afterward. We can only wait and see what happens. But whether it turns out to have been a bad idea (from the perspective of Israel) or not it doesn't really change what I posted, does it? You're not objecting to my assertion that Israel hasn't used nukes, you're complaining because I didn't rush to find a bad thing to say about Israel to balance out that good thing. Not saying something bad about Israel is hardly supporting it.


I think international relations are more complex than that. Simply taking action, even if it wasn't very effective, might itself convey a message. The US has just demonstrated that its willing to get directly involved, that's got to be significant. Although undoubtedly the fact that it was done by the whimsy of a senile maniac might play a role in interpretation of the action.


That's possible, of course. It's also possible that Iran really was close to nukes. Or both could be true. I tend to distrust assumptions that complex events arise from a single cause only.

I'm not in a position to know the truth on these things, and I seriously doubt anybody else posting here is, either. Some people like to proceed on assertions and guesswork, and argue from those things as if they were certain known facts. I'm not much interested in that approach.


I cited it once, then defended that citation as it was repeatedly challenged. Hardly a campaign of propaganda there.



I'm not much interested in talking about the Gaza stuff, that's being covered in another thread. Hence I didn't bring it up. I don't think it's relevant to my point about Israel's non-use of nukes. Unless like the other poster you think it's incumbent on everyone to balance anything said that's good about Israel with something bad.


How about this: we'll talk about hypothetical future scenarios once they've evolved into being actual past events. It's easier because there will be so many fewer events to talk about if we limit ourselves to the ones that actually happened.
You asked, I answered. I don't particularly feel the need to try to convince you.
 
Russia has insinuated several times they will if NATO intervenes in Ukraine.

ETA: For some reason much of the developed world thinks like you do. How dare Israel directly attack Iran, when Iran only attacks them through proxies. Its hogswallop.
Isn't that an argument that Ukraine should never have given up its nukes, since there is no way to make Russia give up theirs?
 
Isn't that an argument that Ukraine should never have given up its nukes, since there is no way to make Russia give up theirs?
Absolutely.

But note that Ukraine never launched terrorists attacks on Russia. If you are trying to imply Ukraine is to Russia as Iran is to Israel, you’re way off the mark.
 
It's true.

Since the beginning of the war with Ukraine, Russia has bombed fewer hospitals, killed fewer journalists, doctors, aid workers and children that than Israel did in far less time.
It would be foolish to expect the restraints and moral standards of the Russian Forces from America's closest ally.

No, what Israel is doing in Gaza is not like what Russia is doing in Ukraine - it's far far worse.
 
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It's true.

Since the beginning of the war with Ukraine, Russia has bombed fewer hospitals, killed fewer journalists, doctors, aid workers and children that than Israel did in far less time.
It would be foolish to expect the restraints and moral standards of the Russian Forces from America's closest ally.

No, what Israel is doing in Gaza is not like what Russia is doing in Ukraine - it's far far worse.
I know I won't be getting any evidence for the above but you are aware that the Ukrainian military tries to minimise civilian casualties on all sides whereas the Palestinian military tries to maximise them right?
 
It's true.

Since the beginning of the war with Ukraine, Russia has bombed fewer hospitals, killed fewer journalists, doctors, aid workers and children that than Israel did in far less time.
Because Ukraine protects those. Hamas puts those in danger. The difference has nothing to do with Israel being worse than Russia, and everything to do with Ukraine being better than Hamas.
No, what Israel is doing in Gaza is not like what Russia is doing in Ukraine - it's far far worse.
This is a lie.
 
It's true.

Since the beginning of the war with Ukraine, Russia has bombed fewer hospitals, killed fewer journalists, doctors, aid workers and children that than Israel did in far less time.
It would be foolish to expect the restraints and moral standards of the Russian Forces from America's closest ally.

No, what Israel is doing in Gaza is not like what Russia is doing in Ukraine - it's far far worse.
I think you've conflated Gaza with Iran here.
 
Nope. To not think that is delusional. And/or plain dishonest. Probably both.



Sure. And they might say the same about Israel.




I said that Israel's nukes poses a threat to some "players", and Iran's nukes, should it get them, would pose a similar threat to a different set of players. Israel's nukes are a threat to those that are belligerent to it, and to those that Israel is belligerent towards, including Iran. And Iran's nukes are a threat to those that are belligerent to it, and to those that Iran is belligerent towards, including Israel.

Sure, Iran is a crazy country, and should not be allowed to get nukes. But equally, Israel is no paragon of restraint, and ought not to have been allowed to get nukes either.
I would be of the opinion that a nuclear backed Iran is less dangerous to the middle east and the world than Israel is. Iran's politics and involvements in the region are defensive in nature, designed to shore up the legitimacy of the regime and maintain the intergrity of the country and its borders. Israel, on the other hand is wholly aggressive, currently expanding its territory at the expense of Palestine, Lebanon and Syria and eyeing lands further afield in Arabia and Mesopotamia. The river meant in the original zionist formulation of "from the river to the sea" is not the Jordan but the Tigris.
 
Because Ukraine protects those. Hamas puts those in danger. The difference has nothing to do with Israel being worse than Russia, and everything to do with Ukraine being better than Hamas.

This is a lie.
No, its true.

A much higher percentage of Gaza's housing, schools, hospitals and civilian infrastructure has been destroyed than in Ukraine.

A much higher percentage of Gaza's civilian population has been killed, than in Ukraine.

So yes, the destruction in Gaza is far worse than in Ukraine. What's happening in Gaza is a genocide.
 

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