Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[p0lka]

Is there another definition that we could be using?

Some transpeople accept the sex they are but want to take on a different gender role.

 

[p0lka]

This question may have been asked/answered before, but even with the super new search facility (cheers, Icerat) I've not been able to find an answer.

Basically, what definition of 'transwoman' is being used in this thread?

Thanks.

I think it's perverts all the way down, for some posters.

 

[theprestige]

Thank you, but that is rather vague. It covers the whole range from a male presenting as a woman (but with all the male hormones/dangly bits in working order), all the way to someone who has had years of counselling and hormone therapy, followed by heavy abdominal surgery.

Oh and I would have phrased it as "A person born male who wishes to be and wishes to be thought of as a woman," as I tend to consider sex and gender as different. But that's just my opinion, I suppose.

ETA: And I don't think they 'wish to be" women - they believe they are but, due to whatever, have the wrong body.

Gender decoupled from sex is entirely without practical meaning.

The actual goal of trans rights activism is to achieve for males the entitlement to override sex segregation whenever they want, so that they can have access to the things society rightly reserves for females.

There is nothing vague or confusing about this, unless you want there to be.

 

[theprestige]

Oh, I wouldn't say weird. I just wanted to know what was being argued about.

What's being argued about are trans rights in public policy. Which boil down to: Should males have the right to override sex segregation whenever they want?

And, if that is the definition being used, I think it is too wide to be particularly meaningful.

It is a very focused and meaningful definition. Male who wants access to the things society rightly reserves for females. Nothing vague about that.

But, sorry to have interupted your argument. Do carry on.

We can have more than one conversation at a time. I'd be very happy to continue your line of discussion as well.

 

[theprestige]

Cheers for that. I didn't know who they were, and the wiki doesn't even mention who they were before transition which is an issue in itself, but I got there in the end.
Ziggurat and others had already shown me that transwomen are insisting that they are female, that's not what I was disagreeing with. I was saying that labeling sports and public spaces or anywhere else where sex is an issue as sex labels, ie male female, instead of gender labels, ie man woman would solve a lot of problems.

The labels were sex labels, up until trans rights activists convinced society to decouple gender from sex, and pretend that sex-segregated spaces were really gender-segregated.

The examples of transwomen insisting that they are female are presented to help you understand that the same people who redefined gender when it got in their way are now hard at work redefining sex for the same reason. It's not a simple matter of definitions. The problem is the power trans rights activists currently have in society, to change definitions and influence policy. That's what we're opposing.

 

[p0lka]

The labels were sex labels, up until trans rights activists convinced society to decouple gender from sex, and pretend that sex-segregated spaces were really gender-segregated.

I was born in 1969 and growing up they were never sex labels to me and lots of other people, they were gender conformity labels which annoyed me. So i disagree as it seems gender roles have been decoupled from sex from at least 1976.

I mean you could be right? But then how far back have these trans right activists been cunningly planning to decouple gender from sex?

The examples of transwomen insisting that they are female are presented to help you understand that the same people who redefined gender when it got in their way are now hard at work redefining sex for the same reason. It's not a simple matter of definitions. The problem is the power trans rights activists currently have in society, to change definitions and influence policy. That's what we're opposing.

Yeah transpeople in general insisting that they have changed sex is denying reality. I wonder what might have happened if we hadn't have called toilets 'restrooms' if we don't want people to rest in them? Or, just call them female toilets if we don't want non females in them and vice versa.

What is this power that you think tras have that is a threat?

 

[smartcooky]

No. The unfortunate reality. Chipping away trans rights is part of the classic "wedge strategy" so often used by the right wing to attack gay rights.

Utter bollocks. There is NO chipping away of trans rights. The only chipping away going in on the trans rights debate are the attacks on free speech, often with the use of violence, by TRAs. They show us exactly who they are every time they protest, with their vandalism of property and their calls for violence against people who oppose their views, including some calls for those opponents to be killed.

These are the people YOU support with your "Protect the Dolls" bull-****

You really don't understand that these two paragraphs contradict each other.

You really don't understand that those two paragraphs only contradict each other in the minds of those brainwashed people captured by the gender ideology cult.

 

[Rolfe]

Protect the cheap, plastic, unrealistic, non-functional facsimiles of women. Good choice of slogan.

 

[smartcooky]

The actual goal of trans rights activism is to achieve for males the entitlement to override sex segregation whenever they want, so that they can have access to the things society rightly reserves for females.

There is nothing vague or confusing about this, unless you want there to be.

Exactly!

The Gender Ideology movement is little more than a Cult of Misogyny. It's membership consists mostly of a bunch of men that have a deep-seated hatred for women, and are pissed-off that women have some aspects of life and comminuty reserved exclusively for them.

The "dolls" @catsmate is so keen to support are not the ones who need protecting. Its biological women who need to be protected, from them!

When we look back at all the debates, the arguments and the protests over the trans-issue just remember which side is the one that;

1. Undertakes email/telephone/social media campaigns to get people who disagree with them, fired from their jobs.
2. Makes and carries out threats against venues that host speakers they disgree with.
3. Counter-protests Women's Rights gatherings by using violence and intidimation.
4. Makes telephone calls to those who dare to speak against them, issuing threats of violence and death, including threats against their children and families.
5. Defaces, vandalises and destroys public and private property.
6. Carry placards at protests imploring others to kill those who hold opposing views to theirs.

We find its only the Trans Rights Activists, those beloved "dolls" that @catsmate supports, who behave this way.

OK, so clear things up for us. Which rights should trans people have that they currently don't have, and why?

Please explain exactly how "transgender individuals should have exactly the same rights as everybody else" is contradicted by ""transgender individuals should not be granted additional rights which no one else has or has ever had, and which adversely affect the existing rights of 50% of the population"?

This question has been asked often, and never been honestly answered.

lionking nails it.
Questions like these are always dodged by TRA's and their hangers-on because they cannot answer honestly without whipping the rug out from under their own arguments.

 

[Aber]

What is this power that you think tras have that is a threat?

Public policy

Standard format for Welsh Government surveys is:

What is your gender?
Male
Female
Other
Prefer not to say

Is your gender the same it was at birth?
Yes
No
Prefer not to say

ie completely confused, and this is used to identify areas of under-representation. This feeds into policy areas like trying to insist that political parties have equal gender representation on PR lists, and proposals that the basis of gender for that purpose is self-identification. The recent Supreme Court case was because the Scottish Government was insisting that women only shortlists to improve gender balance should again be on the basis of self-ID, not sex.

 

[Ziggurat]

“There is no LGBT without the T.”

Well put.

That's not well put, that's a stupid tautology. There's no VKEXL without the L. There's no QEPOZ without the Z. All true statements, none of which matter.

Without the T, then LGBT becomes LGB. Which is what it used to be. The LGB movement made its biggest gains before T joined in, they can manage just fine if the T gets dropped.

 

[theprestige]

That's not well put, that's a stupid tautology. There's no VKEXL without the L. There's no QEPOZ without the Z. All true statements, none of which matter.

Without the T, then LGBT becomes LGB. Which is what it used to be. The LGB movement made its biggest gains before T joined in, they can manage just fine if the T gets dropped.

I dunno. @catsmate seems to have summed up the matter quite nicely. No T, no Trouble.

 

[Darat]

That's not well put, that's a stupid tautology. There's no VKEXL without the L. There's no QEPOZ without the Z. All true statements, none of which matter.

Without the T, then LGBT becomes LGB. Which is what it used to be. The LGB movement made its biggest gains before T joined in, they can manage just fine if the T gets dropped.

Not in the UK, the T started to be commonplace in the 1990s. Section 28 was only finally repealed across the whole country in 2003. Long after the T had been adopted.

 

[8enotto]

And.. That's not well put, that's a stupid tautology. There's no VKEXL without the L. There's no QEPOZ without the Z. All true statements, none of which matter.

Without the T, then LGBT becomes LGB. Which is what it used to be. The LGB movement made its biggest gains before T joined in, they can manage just fine if the T gets dropped.

The New York pride parade was for LGBTTIQ+. Now at 8 digits.
How ar

 

[Matthew Best]

Two Ts?

 

[Darat]

Trans folk and Transvestites?

 

[theprestige]

LGBTQPCMCIABBQWTAFFTCPIPV6

 

[smartcooky]

“There is no LGBT without the T.”

Actually, there is. Its called the "LGB Alliance"

About - LGB Alliance UK

lgballiance.org.uk

They are a gay rights organization that has kicked the "T" to the kerb. And they are growing!

 

[8enotto]

I am not sure, didn't look it up nor watch the video.

But it kinda takes unity and splits it into many letters more than what they would need if united.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I was born in 1969 and growing up they were never sex labels to me and lots of other people, they were gender conformity labels which annoyed me. So i disagree as it seems gender roles have been decoupled from sex from at least 1976.

I have doubts about your claim. I'm a mere five years younger than you... and at no point in my childhood did "boy" mean a child who wore trousers, liked toy cars and guns, and played cowboys & indians with the other kids at recess. If it had, I would have been consistently called a "boy" when I was a wee kid. But I wasn't, despite my penchant for math and science and climbing trees. Because the words "boy" and "girl" and "man" and "woman" have been consistently understood for both of our entire lives to refer to sex.