Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Pixel42]

Yeah, evidence that these tra opponents in this war you think you have, are stating that they can change their sex? Who cares about that?
I'm going down to the bottom of my garden (i don't have a garden) and saying uuummm and changing into a hedgehog, do you feel threatened yet?
i don't need to give any evidence of my own, as my claim is Change the labels to male female instead of man woman and introduce a bit of science and logic back into whatever this is.

What you need to understand is that the only way that trans identifying males can get their validation - can get society to affirm their belief that they really are women in any meaningful sense - is by being granted access to women/female only spaces, services, sports leagues etc. Well, that and pronouns. That's literally all there is.

There have been discussions previously in the thread about the proposition that trans identifying males should "live life as a woman" for a period of time to demonstrate their sincerity before being granted such access, and what that would mean in practice. Obviously in somewhere like Afghanistan that would be easy enough to do: they could forego education, employment etc, and only leave the house if covered from head to foot and accompanied by a male relative. But in a society with full sexual equality they are already free to dress however they like, present themselves however they wish, go to school, apply for any job and fancy whoever it comes naturally to them to fancy. In such societies the only remaining differences between how men and women live their lives are the ones which are a direct consequence of the actual, biological, differences between males and females - the very ones which are forever unavailable to them, because they are and always will be biologically male.

A man who decided to start living their life as a woman would not suddenly start menstruating, and occasionally need to wash blood out of their knickers and dry them under the air dryer in the ladies loo, nor would they get pregnant and occasionally need somewhere to breast feed their baby in relative privacy. They would not suddenly find themselves the object of unwanted sexual attention of random males who are bigger and stronger than they are. They would not suddenly find themselves far more likely to be beaten, murdered or raped by their bigger and stronger partner. These are the things that make the lives of women different to the lives of men. They are the reason why sex segregated spaces, services, sports leagues etc were created: in recognition of the fact that there are biological differences between males and females, most of which significantly disadvantage females. And none of them apply to males, even ones who have decided to "live life as a woman". That's why well meaning attempts to accommodate them by providing unisex facilities alongside the sex segregated ones will never be enough. They must be allowed to use the ones for females, because that's the only way in which they can "live life as a woman".

 

[Matthew Best]

MIT professor Alex Byrne writes in the Washington Post:

In May, the Department of Health and Human Services published a comprehensive review of treatments for gender dysphoria in minors that was swiftly criticized, in part because the names of its authors were withheld.

I am one of the authors… the review wasn’t written by zealots busily grinding axes. In fact, liberals were in the majority. Some of us were paranoid that the White House would try to control the content of the review or even alter it pre-publication; that worry proved unfounded.

I am hardly a fan of the current administration: I have never voted Republican, and as an academic from Cambridge, Massachusetts, I hold many of the liberal beliefs of my tribe. That includes support for the right of transgender people to live free from discrimination and prejudice.

Regardless of their political sympathies, the authors came to an inescapable conclusion. Writes Mr. Byrne:

After surveying all the evidence, and applying widely accepted principles of medical ethics, we found that medical transition for minors is not empirically or ethically justified.

 

[catsmate]

Dublin Pride was today.
Ruadhan O Criodain told the crowd in Merrion Square:

"We all want better futures for the next generation of queer people, but without education or health care, trans people can’t see those futures for ourselves."

“I know you won’t let our community die for the want of a future. I know that each of you will stand with trans people, I know that you will stand up and fight back.

“I know that you won’t give in to the transphobe you’ve seen take hold in the UK, because we are stronger than that.

“The far right and the TERF [Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism] movement want to divide the LGBT community."
“They want to isolate your trans siblings, because then it’ll be easier to tear us all apart.

“If they come for us first, they will come for all of you next. But I won’t let that happen to my community, and I know you’ll promise me the same.

“There is no LGBT without the T.”

Well put.


President Higgins also spoke.
“In a time when hard-won rights are being questioned in many parts of the world, such vigilance and unity are more vital than ever.”

 

[smartcooky]

Dublin Pride was today.
Ruadhan O Criodain told the crowd in Merrion Square:

Well put.


President Higgins also spoke.
“In a time when hard-won rights are being questioned in many parts of the world, such vigilance and unity are more vital than ever.”

Poppycock!

Here's a hint for you. NO politically liberal gendercrits (of which I am one), question the rights of transgender people to express themselves however they wish, dress however they please, call themselves whatever they want, sleep with any adult who wishes to sleep with them, or the rights of trans-identified people to have the same protections with respect to housing, employment, freedom of speech and personal safety every other citizen is entitled to. None of this is being questioned.

So, what rights are being questioned by keeping biological males from using spaces and services reserved for biological women? NONE! The reality is that NO biological males - no matter how they dress, no matter what they call themselves, no matter what pronouns they choose for themselves, have EVER had the right to use those services. They thought they did, because they were lied to by TRAs and organisations that were captured by the gender ideology cult. Those rights are not being questioned. Why? Because they never existed!!

 

[Rolfe]

Possibly that is not entirely true in Ireland, or so I hear.

 

[catsmate]

Poppycock!

No. The unfortunate reality. Chipping away trans rights is part of the classic "wedge strategy" so often used by the right wing to attack gay rights.

Here's a hint for you. NO politically liberal gendercrits (of which I am one), question the rights of transgender people to express themselves however they wish, dress however they please, call themselves whatever they want, sleep with any adult who wishes to sleep with them, or the rights of trans-identified people to have the same protections with respect to housing, employment, freedom of speech and personal safety every other citizen is entitled to. None of this is being questioned.

So, what rights are being questioned by keeping biological males from using spaces and services reserved for biological women? NONE! The reality is that NO biological males - no matter how they dress, no matter what they call themselves, no matter what pronouns they choose for themselves, have EVER had the right to use those services. They thought they did, because they were lied to by TRAs and organisations that were captured by the gender ideology cult. Those rights are not being questioned. Why? Because they never existed!!

You really don't understand that these two paragraphs contradict each other.

 

[catsmate]

From yesterday.

 

[Matthew Best]

No. The unfortunate reality. Chipping away trans rights is part of the classic "wedge strategy" so often used by the right wing to attack gay rights.

You really don't understand that these two paragraphs contradict each other.

OK, so clear things up for us. Which rights should trans people have that they currently don't have, and why?

 

[Pixel42]

No. The unfortunate reality. Chipping away trans rights is part of the classic "wedge strategy" so often used by the right wing to attack gay rights.

Of course this issue is being used as a wedge by the right, it's an absolute gift to them. When liberals are arguing a position that about 95% of the population know is nonsensical - essentially, that objective reality can be changed by the thoughts in someone's head - it would be surprising if that fact wasn't used by conservatives to try to undermine other, fully defensible, liberal positions. That is not a reason for sceptics to stop pointing out the indefensibility of this particular position. It is, on the contrary, a good reason for liberal sceptics to do so loudly, before too much damage is caused.

You really don't understand that these two paragraphs contradict each other.

Please explain exactly how "transgender individuals should have exactly the same rights as everybody else" is contradicted by ""transgender individuals should not be granted additional rights which no one else has or has ever had, and which adversely affect the existing rights of 50% of the population"?

 

[lionking]

OK, so clear things up for us. Which rights should trans people have that they currently don't have, and why?

This question has been asked often, and never been honestly answered.

 

[Matthew Best]

This question has been asked often, and never been honestly answered.

Catsmate is about to answer it, I'm sure.

 

[SteveAitch]

This question may have been asked/answered before, but even with the super new search facility (cheers, Icerat) I've not been able to find an answer.

Basically, what definition of 'transwoman' is being used in this thread?

Thanks.

 

[Darat]

This question may have been asked/answered before, but even with the super new search facility (cheers, Icerat) I've not been able to find an answer.

Basically, what definition of 'transwoman' is being used in this thread?

Thanks.

A person born male who wishes to be and wishes to be thought of as female.

 

[Matthew Best]

Is there another definition that we could be using?

 

[SteveAitch]

A person born male who wishes to be and wishes to be thought of as female.

Thank you, but that is rather vague. It covers the whole range from a male presenting as a woman (but with all the male hormones/dangly bits in working order), all the way to someone who has had years of counselling and hormone therapy, followed by heavy abdominal surgery.

Oh and I would have phrased it as "A person born male who wishes to be and wishes to be thought of as a woman," as I tend to consider sex and gender as different. But that's just my opinion, I suppose.

ETA: And I don't think they 'wish to be" women - they believe they are but, due to whatever, have the wrong body.

 

[Matthew Best]

Well, that was a weird diversion. Now back to Catsmate's answer to the question.

 

[SteveAitch]

Well, that was a weird diversion. Now back to Catsmate's answer to the question.

Oh, I wouldn't say weird. I just wanted to know what was being argued about.

And, if that is the definition being used, I think it is too wide to be particularly meaningful.

But, sorry to have interupted your argument. Do carry on.

 

[Rolfe]

Thank you, but that is rather vague. It covers the whole range from a male presenting as a woman (but with all the male hormones/dangly bits in working order), all the way to someone who has had years of counselling and hormone therapy, followed by heavy abdominal surgery.

Oh and I would have phrased it as "A person born male who wishes to be and wishes to be thought of as a woman," as I tend to consider sex and gender as different. But that's just my opinion, I suppose.

ETA: And I don't think they 'wish to be" women - they believe they are but, due to whatever, have the wrong body.

Nobody is "born in the wrong body". It's a nonsensical concept. Read up about autogynaephilia. (Also about homosexual transsexualism.)

 

[Pixel42]

Thank you, but that is rather vague. It covers the whole range from a male presenting as a woman (but with all the male hormones/dangly bits in working order), all the way to someone who has had years of counselling and hormone therapy, followed by heavy abdominal surgery.

I guess it depends what you consider a large range. As a proportion of the differences between males and females, many would consider that range to be relatively small.

 

[p0lka]

Already happened in the UK - cut and paste for those with Twitter issues

https://twitter.com/x/status/1559530487680569344

For those who don't know who the person is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_Willoughby

Cheers for that. I didn't know who they were, and the wiki doesn't even mention who they were before transition which is an issue in itself, but I got there in the end.
Ziggurat and others had already shown me that transwomen are insisting that they are female, that's not what I was disagreeing with. I was saying that labeling sports and public spaces or anywhere else where sex is an issue as sex labels, ie male female, instead of gender labels, ie man woman would solve a lot of problems.