Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Ziggurat]

OK, as you are observing the present, then where's the data on what effect the change from gender based labels to sex based labels had?

Are you incapable of logical deductions?

I don't care and neither should anyone else care about what people want to imagine themselves to be amongst themselves, be it female male unicorn wizard bear or whatever, but the moment it hits reality is when it matters. Changing to sex based labels makes it easier to say nope to if you so wish.

The problem has NEVER been how easy it is to say "nope". The problem is who has the power. You can say "no" all you want to, you can be right all you want to, but if you aren't the one with the power, your "no" is irrelevant. Who has power is the reality that actually matters. You're under this delusion that power doesn't matter, that there's some objective impartial authority to whom you can appeal, and that by changing labels you can get this fantasy authority to agree with you, because then you will be "right". But there is no such authority, and it never mattered who was right.

I swear, this is like talking to a child who cannot conceive that life isn't fair.

 

[p0lka]

Are you incapable of logical deductions?

The problem has NEVER been how easy it is to say "nope". The problem is who has the power. You can say "no" all you want to, you can be right all you want to, but if you aren't the one with the power, your "no" is irrelevant. Who has power is the reality that actually matters. You're under this delusion that power doesn't matter, that there's some objective impartial authority to whom you can appeal, and that by changing labels you can get this fantasy authority to agree with you, because then you will be "right". But there is no such authority, and it never mattered who was right.

I swear, this is like talking to a child who cannot conceive that life isn't fair.

Well to be fair as a child I used to annoy adults as I never accepted that something was true just because they said so.

Power? I think you are overestimating these tra's and their power. Imagine one of them standing up and holding their balls whilst stating (to everyone else, not their supporters) that they are female? How do you think that would go down?

 

[Ziggurat]

Well to be fair as a child I used to annoy adults as I never accepted that something was true just because they said so.

I'm not asking you to take something on my authority. I'm asking you to look around, notice what's happening, and use a little bit of reasoning skill.

Power? I think you are overestimating these tra's and their power. Imagine one of them standing up and holding their balls whilst stating (to everyone else, not their supporters) that they are female? How do you think that would go down?

See, this is what I'm talking about. You aren't actually looking around and observing what happens. You aren't actually thinking about how things work. It's not the individual trans identifying male who has power, sure. It's the government. And if the government says that this trans identifying male gets to enter the women's bathroom, or the female bathroom (because the government doesn't care about that distinction), then that male gets to do so, and your objections can just ◊◊◊◊ right off, because YOU don't have any individual power either, and government doesn't care about any of your arguments.

 

[p0lka]

We had a recent change of government, sometimes i think they care too much about voters but that's offtopic.

There was a uk supreme court ruling a while ago that was about definitions and such,

UK Supreme Court rules legal definition of a woman is based on biological sex

Judges say the "concept of sex is binary" while adding that transgender people will still have protection against discrimination.

www.bbc.co.uk

you can find the full ruling in subsequent links there.
I think it was a missed opportunity to implement what I suggest, but in spite of that they did a thing that helps females.

edit: full ruling here.

https://supremecourt.uk/uploads/uksc_2024_0042_judgment_aea6c48cee.pdf

double edit: I forgot to make my point, my point is that there's no power in denying reality when everyone else will disagree, that's why courts are making decisions on these things.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I will repeat what I have said previously about this... In years to come, people will look back on this with same scorn and disbelief as we do when we recall the thalidomide scandal. They will be wondering what the hell we thought we were doing.

I think it will be massively worse than thalidomide. Recall that when thalidomide was introduced, we didn't know that chirality could make a difference at all. It was essentially an unforeseeable outcome.

This will be far more like lobotomies than thalidomide, with perhaps a hefty dose of "big tobacco burying evidence of carcinogenic results" to boot.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I respectfully disagree for the reasons I've said.


If there was a problem with people going into restrooms and just resting, then yes of course a potential solution would be to just change the name into something that doesn't have 'rest' in the title?
Why is that hard to understand?

Most normally adjusted and cognitively typical humans understand both figurative language and euphemism.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You are predicting the future and stating that it would never work because of a future prediction, I'm saying as far as I am aware it's not been tried yet maybe give it a go. It seems there's only one of us of sticking to realism.

No, it's not predicting the future. It's based on us all having observed absolutely male people appropriating the term female for their use in order to push their agenda. We've seen it here, when a prior poster was open about having a male body, complete with intact penis and tesitcles, but simultaneously demanded that they were "just as female as a biological female" and somehow managed to get some of us carded for referring them as male. We've seen Rachel Levine lauded as the first female in that role, Prizker lauded as the highest paid female CEO.

The thing that you're relying on to solve the problem has already been tried at small scale, and has been completely and entirely ineffective. We already dipped our toes into the solution you proposed - it didn't work then, it continues to not work, and I don't see any reason to think that it will suddenly start working now just because you've thought of it for the first time

Not a slam on you, just pointing out that we already tried this, it's not a novel idea.

 

[theprestige]

We had a recent change of government, sometimes i think they care too much about voters but that's offtopic.

There was a uk supreme court ruling a while ago that was about definitions and such,

UK Supreme Court rules legal definition of a woman is based on biological sex

Judges say the "concept of sex is binary" while adding that transgender people will still have protection against discrimination.

www.bbc.co.uk

you can find the full ruling in subsequent links there.
I think it was a missed opportunity to implement what I suggest, but in spite of that they did a thing that helps females.

edit: full ruling here.

https://supremecourt.uk/uploads/uksc_2024_0042_judgment_aea6c48cee.pdf

double edit: I forgot to make my point, my point is that there's no power in denying reality when everyone else will disagree, that's why courts are making decisions on these things.

If you'd been following this thread, you'd already know we're well aware of this ruling.

This is a very recent change, after long years of reality-denying activists holding power and influencing policy. And these same activists have not quietly accepted this ruling. They continue to advocate for their reality denial. We have seen the same reality denial in science and medicine. And we have seen it persist even in the face of such reversals as this ruling, or the Cass report.

We've been fighting for this for years, and for years had every reason to believe it was a losing battle. The institutions had already been ideologically captured by the reality-deniers. Hopefully this reversal is a sign of things to come, but it's clear that the fight isn't over yet. It's not like bankruptcy. You can't just "declare" it.

 

[theprestige]

No, it's not predicting the future. It's based on us all having observed absolutely male people appropriating the term female for their use in order to push their agenda. We've seen it here, when a prior poster was open about having a male body, complete with intact penis and tesitcles, but simultaneously demanded that they were "just as female as a biological female" and somehow managed to get some of us carded for referring them as male. We've seen Rachel Levine lauded as the first female in that role, Prizker lauded as the highest paid female CEO.

The thing that you're relying on to solve the problem has already been tried at small scale, and has been completely and entirely ineffective. We already dipped our toes into the solution you proposed - it didn't work then, it continues to not work, and I don't see any reason to think that it will suddenly start working now just because you've thought of it for the first time

I'd also like to point out that the whole reason @p0lka has to push so hard for male/female terminology is that the reality-deniers have already debased what used to be synonymous man/woman terminology. He's trying to win a war of definitions against an enemy that specializes in winning by redefining things. They've already gotten him to concede man/woman. He's fighting a desperate rearguard action, and doesn't even realize it. He still thinks he's in the vanguard, leading the charge.

 

[p0lka]

I'd also like to point out that the whole reason @p0lka has to push so hard for male/female terminology is that the reality-deniers have already debased what used to be synonymous man/woman terminology. He's trying to win a war of definitions against an enemy that specializes in winning by redefining things. They've already gotten him to concede man/woman. He's fighting a desperate rearguard action, and doesn't even realize it. He still thinks he's in the vanguard, leading the charge.

As I posted before to someone else that posited that I have been mind manipulated

As a kid growing up I hated social conformity as I've said many times in this thread. As a kid I hated the idea of 'woman does this, man does that' and paid attention to the people that did not conform to those roles. Some of those people were insistent that they should be treated as a 'woman' or as a 'man' etc. None of them argued about what sex they were, no one even thought about it.
I was born in 1969, I'm not retroactively changing anything, these are the facts for me growing up.

I think the tra's and the people arguing against the tra's have been sucked into a realm where facts don't matter and they are both being irrational.

edit: Change the labels to male female instead of man woman and introduce a bit of science and logic back into whatever this is.

This thread is weird, people call people names or do the ad hom thing instead of offering evidence, weird.

 

[Ziggurat]

This thread is weird, people call people names or do the ad hom thing instead of offering evidence, weird.

We have presented you with lots of evidence. You keep ignoring it, and producing no evidence of your own. That has lost you a lot of good will.

 

[angrysoba]

Most normally adjusted and cognitively typical humans understand both figurative language and euphemism.

As a child, when I went to the US for the first time, that one really did cause me problems as I couldn’t find a toilet anywhere but there were no end of rooms where I could take a rest!

 

[p0lka]

We have presented you with lots of evidence. You keep ignoring it, and producing no evidence of your own. That has lost you a lot of good will.

Yeah, evidence that these tra opponents in this war you think you have, are stating that they can change their sex? Who cares about that?
I'm going down to the bottom of my garden (i don't have a garden) and saying uuummm and changing into a hedgehog, do you feel threatened yet?
i don't need to give any evidence of my own, as my claim is Change the labels to male female instead of man woman and introduce a bit of science and logic back into whatever this is.

 

[Ziggurat]

Yeah, evidence that these tra opponents in this war you think you have, are stating that they can change their sex? Who cares about that?

You. You're basing your argument on the idea that they wouldn't do that because it's obviously wrong, or at least they couldn't get away with doing that (as if there are actually any negative consequences). And that's why relabeling bathrooms as "female" would work, because transwomen aren't female, and nobody would ever claim that they were.

Except they do. Transwomen are every bit as female as they are women.

I'm going down to the bottom of my garden (i don't have a garden) and saying uuummm and changing into a hedgehog, do you feel threatened yet?

It was never what they said that was the threat. Just as what label you stick on the door won't keep them out.

You have this really weird schizophrenic approach to language, where you think what they say doesn't matter but what you say (ie, the label on the bathroom door) will completely determine things. Every single error you accuse others of making, you make yourself.

i don't need to give any evidence of my own, as my claim is Change the labels to male female instead of man woman

You are claiming this will improve things. Damn right you need some evidence to back that up. You have none.

and introduce a bit of science and logic back into whatever this is.

How exactly are you going to do that? By changing the labels on the door? What kind of idiot would think that would actually make people think more scientifically or logically about any of this?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'd also like to point out that the whole reason @p0lka has to push so hard for male/female terminology is that the reality-deniers have already debased what used to be synonymous man/woman terminology. He's trying to win a war of definitions against an enemy that specializes in winning by redefining things. They've already gotten him to concede man/woman. He's fighting a desperate rearguard action, and doesn't even realize it. He still thinks he's in the vanguard, leading the charge.

At least p0lka is fighting... even if they're late to the game and suggesting tactics that we've already tried, and which already failed.

 

[Emily's Cat]

As a child, when I went to the US for the first time, that one really did cause me problems as I couldn’t find a toilet anywhere but there were no end of rooms where I could take a rest!

Idioms are the bane of learning a new language.

 

[Ziggurat]

At least p0lka is fighting...

He isn't. He's demanding we concede the definition of "woman".

I gave him a lot of slack early on for just not understanding the state of things. But he's burned through all my benefit of doubt.

 

[Emily's Cat]

He isn't. He's demanding we concede the definition of "woman".

I gave him a lot of slack early on for just not understanding the state of things. But he's burned through all my benefit of doubt.

If I think back to where I started a decade or so ago... I was pretty much in the same situation. Hell, to some extent I still am - why do you think I go to such lengths to avoid using the terms women, girls, boys, men, he, she, etc. here? It's for the same basic premise - at the point where the prevailing approach of this site became based on gender I had a choice: either surrender the word "woman" to necessarily include males, or stop using the word woman altogether.

I know full well that this is not a solution for the overarching issue. I know it's ineffective. But I've had four and a half years of learning and internalizing that.

P0lka isn't fighting the way you and I are, absolutely. But they're also not opposing our view, and seem far more in line with a gender critical approach than with a trans ideology approach. So yeah - my patience is thin, but I'm trying to hold on to it. For all intents, p0lka is in first grade and we're working on our doctorate

 

[Aber]

You are predicting the future and stating that it would never work because of a future prediction, I'm saying as far as I am aware it's not been tried yet maybe give it a go. It seems there's only one of us of sticking to realism.

Already happened in the UK - cut and paste for those with Twitter issues

https://twitter.com/x/status/1559530487680569344

India Willoughby
@IndiaWilloughby



I’m 100% a biological woman and female. The fact the GC movement can’t handle this simple fact isn’t my problem. Jealous.

For those who don't know who the person is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_Willoughby

In 2017, Willoughby joined 5 News on Channel 5 to read the lunchtime and evening updates, becoming Britain's first transgender national television newsreader. The same year Willoughby was invited onto ITV's Loose Women as a guest. She was later invited back to co-host.

In January 2018, Willoughby took part in Channel 5's Celebrity Big Brother – Year of the Woman

 

[Matthew Best]

Or this: