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Ed Israel/US Attacks Iran /Yet Another Country/Iran

Ziggurat said:
They didn't give Iran centrifuges before. And what's the very next sentence?

"Direct nuclear cooperation has ended, but there is speculation over whether there remains indirect nuclear cooperation."

Giving Iran centrifuges would be VERY direct nuclear cooperation. Which China isn't doing right now. So again I ask, why would that suddenly change? You still haven't said.
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Ziggurat said:
Shutting down the Strait isn't as simple a task as you might imagine. Iran could probably do it for a short time, but doing so indefinitely is not so easy. But the real kicker is what would happen even if they did. You see, neither the US nor Israel actually depend on the Strait in order to get oil. But you know who does? China. It's in the US's interest to keep the Strait open because of the effects of closure on some of our trading partners, but it would have little direct impact on the US. But China depends directly on oil passing through the Strait. Do you think China would be OK with the Strait closing? Do you think Iran is in a position to piss off China?
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This Ziggurat guy seems to think China would have an interest in Iran having a deterrent that doesn't involve shutting down trade, why don't you ask him?
 
The Great Zaganza said:
maybe you are right.
maybe China can't sell them centrifuges - just the material to build them, plus the engineers and workers to assemble them.
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See below.
Hercules56 said:
No, I corrected myself. You got a problem with that?
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Let's see what your original claim was:
Hercules56 said:
New centrifuges can probably be built easily and quickly, or just imported, and Iran will have a nuke in a few weeks.
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Could they get some assistance from China? Maybe they could (but again, don't ignore China's incentive to not allow new nuclear club members). Could they have a nuke in a few weeks? No, they could not.
 
Ziggurat said:
See below.

Let's see what your original claim was:

Could they get some assistance from China? Maybe they could (but again, don't ignore China's incentive to not allow new nuclear club members). Could they have a nuke in a few weeks? No, they could not.
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After they have centrifuges? Yes, would only take a few weeks.
 
Wow, is Trump naive or stupid?

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arthwollipot said:
Funny, because I've told you, directly and personally, on several occasions. But I'm more than happy to do so again.

The only just war is one of defence of the homeland against a foreign aggressor.
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Gotcha. I'll try to keep that in mind. Thanks for indulging me.

arthwollipot said:
Would you like to reconsider this assumption given the above?
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After a moment's reconsideration, I remembered that Iran is indeed a foreign aggressor to Israel (and Iraq, and Saudi Arabia, and... ).

So now I suppose either you don't see it that way, or you don't think preemptive strikes have a place in the waging of a just war.
 
Hercules56 said:
The dream of Returning to Zion is as old as Judaism itself. Zionism simply created the modern social and diplomatic machinery to actually make it happen. There is a reason why Argentina and Uganda didn't work, as no Jews would accept such an idea.
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One thing is the dream of return, another altogether is what Zionism was at its founding, inspired as I said above in the idea of a nation for each "race", that term commonly used in Europe at the time for the "French race, German race" etc, along the lines of what we consider an ethnicity. So let's update to that term and observe that early Zionism, and that includes Ben-Gurion, was a movement much in emulation and in tune with its European times. It was not directly driven by adherence to mythical Judaism, and many arguments of that day had to do with that fact.
Hercules56 said:
Jews have ALWAYS believed and continue to believe today that Palestine is the Holy Land, given to the Jews by God, and all Jews have a holy and natural right to reside there.
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Not the same thing as Zionism. For example, some have argued that the return should coincide with the appearance of the Messiah; iow, at a time when YWH has indicated that it was the time. This is coherent if one goes by the Exodus myth, in which God was very choosey about the "when", that time being when the lessons of the wandering in the desert had been learned. Others have argued that the Diaspora must be taken as revelation, that God had new plans. This is in line with the flood and pilar of salt punishments as lessons. Zionism is an ethno-nationalist movement quite independent of religious teachings. I heartily recommend reading early works, or finding a link I have left to a video that goes through quotes and book references quite thoroughly. Jewish historians and philosophers document this history in their works. I'd provide the links, but I do not keep a collection in some war chest; for now, seek those posts that have them, mostly in my own thread, I believe.

Hercules56 said:
And yes, more than 50% of Israeli Jews have non-European ancestry, mostly from North Africa and the Middle East. Semites, by your logic.
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Today that may be true. It most certainly was not at the time of the conquest and expulsion of the indigenous Palestinians, the point again being that the creation of the state of Israel was Zionist-nationalist in nature and not one of adherence to the faith, not that either justify the colonization. This does not mean there were not immigrants, especially later ones, that did.

It also remains to be the case that a non-Semite Jew, even a recent convert, may claim land in the West Bank by right of religion alone. This is grotesque, divorced as it is from all historical, biological or other rationales, making it purely a case of religious extremism a la ISIS.

ETA: Being a Semite or not is only germane in the sense of making the point that Palestinians are as much Semitic as anyone in the region, such that Semitism cannot be an argument in favor of one group having greater claim than another; i.e., the justifications used instead of ethnicity, given how problematic that would be for European Jews, are wholly parallel to those used by ISIS: religious canon supersedes all.
 
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Hlafordlaes said:
One thing is the dream of return, another altogether is what Zionism was at its founding, inspired as I said above in the idea of a nation for each "race", that term commonly used in Europe at the time for the "French race, German race" etc, along the lines of what we consider an ethnicity. So let's update to that term and observe that early Zionism, and that includes Ben-Gurion, was a movement much in emulation and in tune with its European times. It was not directly driven by adherence to mythical Judaism, and many arguments of that day had to do with that fact.

Not the same thing as Zionism. For example, some have argued that the return should coincide with the appearance of the Messiah; iow, at a time when YWH has indicated that it was the time. This is coherent if one goes by the Exodus myth, in which God was very choosey about the "when", that time being when the lessons of the wandering in the desert had been learned. Others have argued that the Diaspora must be taken as revelation, that God had new plans. This is in line with the flood and pilar of salt punishments as lessons. Zionism is an ethno-nationalist movement quite independent of religious teachings. I heartily recommend reading early works, or finding a link I have left to a video that goes through quotes and book references quite thoroughly. Jewish historians and philosophers document this history in their works. I'd provide the links, but I do not keep a collection in some war chest; for now, seek those posts that have them, mostly in my own thread, I believe.


Today that may be true. It most certainly was not at the time of the conquest and expulsion of the indigenous Palestinians, the point again being that the creation of the state of Israel was Zionist-nationalist in nature and not one of adherence to the faith, not that either justify the colonization. This does not mean there were not immigrants, especially later ones, that did.

It also remains to be the case that a non-Semite Jew, even a recent convert, may claim land in the West Bank by right of religion alone. This is grotesque, divorced as it is from all historical, biological or other rationales, making it purely a case of religious extremism a la ISIS.

ETA: Being a Semite or not is only germane in the sense of making the point that Palestinians are as much Semitic as anyone in the region, such that Semitism cannot be an argument in favor of one group having greater claim than another; i.e., the justifications used instead of ethnicity, given how problematic that would be for European Jews, are wholly parallel to those used by ISIS: religious canon supersedes all.
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Let's stop talking about this in a thread about the war with Iran and their nuke program, k?
 
Hercules56 said:
Let's stop talking about this in a thread about the war with Iran and their nuke program, k?
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I agree, having come to the same conclusion moments ago.
***
As for the war itself, it seems we are back in the cold phase now. Next attack by some actor or proxy , whenever it comes, will start it all up again. This is not over, and Iran's nuke is now inevitable, whereas imo it was not so before.
 
Hercules56 said:
www.jpost.com

Bezalel Smotrich: Iran defeated, nukes program starting from zero | The Jerusalem Post

Ben-Gvir asked Netanyahu to state regime change as war goal, continue campaign • Ceasefire not brought to a cabinet vote
www.jpost.com www.jpost.com

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Wow, these IDFascists are soooo naive.
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Trump is either a FOOL or a LIAR, to say that Iran is now starting from zero.

And now, there will be no more IAEA monitoring, so we will never know what they do or do not have.
 
US intelligence assessment says Iran's nuke weapon program set back by 3 to 6 months.

If true, major Trump failure.
 
Great. Now what will he do to try to make up for it? Drop a nuke? He's pissed off half the country for trying this, and the other half can't be thrilled he failed at it.
 
I think Trump has caused a bit of a conundrum for Israel. He and Vance claims the US has obliterated the Iranian nuclear weapons program. Israel seems to be celebrating it now, but in a week or two they will want to say Iran is only weeks away from having a bomb again.

Iran, on the other hand, are simultaneously claiming they have no nuclear weapons programme and that their nuclear weapons programme is now invincible.
 
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