Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 32

[Vixen]

If I was a guilter, I wouldn't keep even one irony meter anywhere near me. Look at what happened to three of them above. Kablooie!


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I am neither guilter nor innocenter; believe it or not I am impartial, neutral and entirely objective (obvs within the confines of my limitations). Some people just like to get to the truth of a matter without the thrills, hype, spin and taking of sides.

 

[AmyStrange]

"I am neither guilter nor innocenter [sic]; believe it or not I am impartial, neutral and entirely objective..."

Bwahahahahahaha... thanks for the laugh.


-

 

[SpitfireIX]

I am neither guilter nor innocenter; believe it or not I am impartial, neutral and entirely objective (obvs within the confines of my limitations). Some people just like to get to the truth of a matter without the thrills, hype, spin and taking of sides.

Granting, arguendo, that you actually mean this, I don't know that I've ever seen a statement that shows a greater lack of self-awareness in my entire life.

 

[Numbers]

I am neither guilter nor innocenter; believe it or not I am impartial, neutral and entirely objective (obvs within the confines of my limitations). Some people just like to get to the truth of a matter without the thrills, hype, spin and taking of sides.

Vixen's post quoted above is, objectively considered based on reliable evidence, highly amusing.

More important for understanding the Knox - Sollecito case, and other Italian cases, is the level of objectivity in the Italian courts. The starting point for judicial objectivity, after the neutrality or personal objectivity of the trier of fact (judge or jury), are the rules of evidence followed by the court (in the best case explicitly documented, and in sufficient detail). The rules of evidence for the Italian criminal courts may be limited to those contained in the CPP and perhaps some maxims from the CSC. In contrast, for the US federal courts, there is an extensive listing of the rules of evidence*, 29 pages long, consisting of those enacted by law and others required by the Supreme Court. The rules for each state may differ to some extent from the federal rules.

* https://www.uscourts.gov/file/78325/download

Also see:

https://www.findlaw.com/hirealawyer/choosing-the-right-lawyer/evidence-law.html

Rules of evidence | EBSCO

Rules of evidence are a set of legal principles that govern what information can be presented in court during trials. These rules are essential to ensuring that trials run smoothly and that jurors make decisions based on reliable evidence, rather than personal biases or misinformation...

www.ebsco.com

 

[Stacyhs]

Once again you are failing to follow the argument under discussion which was whether Guede leaving home as a young person and being unemployed/employed for short periods is in anyway particularly unusual as you keep claiming.

I'm following the topic just fine which was NOT whether "Guede leaving home as a young person and being unemployed/employed for short periods is in anyway particularly unusual." It was whether he had pattern of behavior of lying, skipping school, getting fired or quitting jobs, being totally irresponsible and stealing/burglary.

Yet again, you try to minimize Guede's behavior:
1. "leaving home as a young person"
He didn't "leave home": he was kicked out because of his behavior.

2. "unemployed/employed for short periods"
He was either fired from or quit every single job he had for years.

, You fail to acknowledge he was not a homeless hobo, he had his own bedsit, so not much different from Sollecito.

When Paolo Caporali kicked him out, he had no place to live so he went to his aunt and uncle in Lecco and lived with them the winter and spring of 2007. After losing or quitting his job yet again, he went back to Perugia in the late spring. The only reason he wasn't homeless at the time of the murder was because his foster mother wrote a letter of recommendation for him so he could get a tiny, one room bedsit earlier that summer. A bedsit he couldn't pay rent for because, once again, he was unemployed.

To compare him to Sollecito is ludicrous. Sollecito didn't quit school and was getting ready to graduate from college. His apartment was a one- bedroom he had to himself with no roommates and a brand-new car. He also had an income from rental units his mother had left to him. Nor did he have a reputation for lying or theft.

Once again you have falsely claimed he had convictions for burglary, so it is clear you are a stranger to factual information.

Stop lying. I have NEVER claimed he had CONVICTIONS for burglary which is why you CANNOT quote me doing so. I said he was caught red-handed by police with a knife in his backpack taken from the school he was in illegally which makes him a burglar. I said he was caught red-handed with stolen goods from the law office and by Tramontano in his apartment.

Like Joanna Denehy, Knox seems to revel in having little or no empathy.

Like a certain US president, you just make things up whenever it suits you.

Sollecito was described by the prosecution to the court as being 'as cold as ice'.

What he actually said was "He has never shown any regret, he’s always been impassive and ice-cold." So not getting hysterical and controlling himself in a society that looks with contempt on men showing 'girly' emotional weakness is being "impassive and ice-cold" in Mignini's opinion. Heh.

Mignini expects RS to feel regret over something he never did. I wonder if Mignini feels regret over murdering Kercher? Oh, wait, he didn't kill her either! But, damn, show some regret anyway, Giuliano! How ice-cold can you be?

 

[Stacyhs]

I am neither guilter nor innocenter; believe it or not I am impartial, neutral and entirely objective (obvs within the confines of my limitations). Some people just like to get to the truth of a matter without the thrills, hype, spin and taking of sides.

Is that really how you see yourself? REALLY? REALLY?

 

[Numbers]

Those who believe that police officers are always persons beyond suspicion - a PGP mantra - should read about the Sandra Birchmore case in Massachusetts.* The following is an excerpt from a statement released by the US Attorney's Office, District of Massachusetts:

Former Massachusetts Police Officer Arrested in Connection with Murder of Young Woman​

Defendant [a former police officer] allegedly murdered a pregnant young woman and staged her death to look like a suicide to prevent law enforcement from learning about their sexual relationship which began when she was a minor [and he was a police officer].

BOSTON – A former Stoughton, Mass. police officer has been charged in federal court in Boston with allegedly murdering a young woman to prevent her from disclosing information about his longstanding sexual exploitation of her while he was on duty, beginning when she was a minor.

Matthew Farwell, 38, of North Easton, Mass., has been indicted on one count of killing a witness or victim. Farwell was arrested this morning and will make an initial appearance in federal court in Boston at 2:30 p.m. today [28 August 2024].

According to the indictment, on or about Feb. 1, 2021, Farwell allegedly killed Sandra Birchmore by strangulation. It is alleged that Farwell staged her body and apartment to make it appear as if Birchmore had committed suicide. The indictment alleges that Farwell killed Birchmore with the intent to prevent law enforcement from learning about Farwell’s commission or possible commission of federal offenses.
....
According to court documents, while Birchmore’s death was initially ruled a suicide, the federal investigation probed old evidence and revealed critical new evidence leading to the charge against Farwell.

The charge of killing a witness or victim carries a mandatory sentence of death or life in prison. Sentences are imposed by a federal district court judge based upon the U.S. Sentencing Guidelines and statutes which govern the determination of a sentence in a criminal case.

....

The details contained in the charging documents are allegations. The defendant is presumed innocent unless and until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law.

* See:

Killing of Sandra Birchmore - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Former Massachusetts Police Officer Arrested in Connection with Murder of Young Woman

BOSTON – A former Stoughton, Mass. police officer has been charged in federal court in Boston with allegedly murdering a young woman to prevent her from disclosing information about his longstanding sexual exploitation of her while he was on duty, beginning when she was a minor.

www.justice.gov

 

[Stacyhs]

In 2019, an American teenager stabbed to death a carabinieri officer, Mario Cerciello Rega, in Rome and was convicted along with another teen who did not stab the officer but helped to hide the knife. Cerciello Rega's partner, Andrea Varriale (who was also involved in the attack) was convicted of lying about the evidence. Varriale claimed he and Cerciello Rega identified themselves as police with their badges (they were wearing plain clothes) but the two boys said they never did and they believed them to be drug dealers trying to rip them off. Cerciello Rega's badge was never found. Varriale also claimed both he and C-Rega had their guns with them. That proved to be a lie. Varriale conspired with a superior officer to hide that lie by falsifying police records. Both were convicted. A message on Varriale's phone was evidence:
“Andrea, you mustn’t speak to anyone about this report. (Sandro) Ottaviani (the precinct’s chief at the time) knows all about it. Come and see me and we’ll fill it in together. Don’t speak a word.”

In the same case, three prosecution witnesses were charged with perjury. One, Constantin Saracila, was a homeless man who testified for the prosecution that he saw both Americans speaking to the two carabinieri just before the attack. It later was proven that he was lying. Sound familiar?

Two other prosecution witnesses turned out to be police informants which they did not disclose.

This is an example of the Italian police lying to cover themselves and to cover each other.

 

[Numbers]

In 2019, an American teenager stabbed to death a carabinieri officer, Mario Cerciello Rega, in Rome and was convicted along with another teen who did not stab the officer but helped to hide the knife. Cerciello Rega's partner, Andrea Varriale (who was also involved in the attack) was convicted of lying about the evidence. Varriale claimed he and Cerciello Rega identified themselves as police with their badges (they were wearing plain clothes) but the two boys said they never did and they believed them to be drug dealers trying to rip them off. Cerciello Rega's badge was never found. Varriale also claimed both he and C-Rega had their guns with them. That proved to be a lie. Varriale conspired with a superior officer to hide that lie by falsifying police records. Both were convicted. A message on Varriale's phone was evidence:
“Andrea, you mustn’t speak to anyone about this report. (Sandro) Ottaviani (the precinct’s chief at the time) knows all about it. Come and see me and we’ll fill it in together. Don’t speak a word.”

In the same case, three prosecution witnesses were charged with perjury. One, Constantin Saracila, was a homeless man who testified for the prosecution that he saw both Americans speaking to the two carabinieri just before the attack. It later was proven that he was lying. Sound familiar?

Two other prosecution witnesses turned out to be police informants which they did not disclose.

This is an example of the Italian police lying to cover themselves and to cover each other.

Stacyhs, do you have a citation for the conviction of Andrea Varriale? (I couldn't find a reference in my limited search.)

The Guardian states that the two Americans received reduced sentences - a departure from the first instance court's ruling - largely because of their limited understanding of the Italian language, after the CSC ordered a retrial.*

The fatal incident took place after they arranged to meet a small-time drug dealer, who turned out to have been a police informant, to recover money lost in a bad deal.

* https://www.theguardian.com/world/a...onvictions-two-americans-death-police-officer
** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Mario_Cerciello_Rega

 

[Stacyhs]

He was investigated for lying and he admitted it:

"I made a stupid mistake, saying that I had the gun with me and that I had handed it over to my station commander in the hospital. But by then, I had already told many colleagues that I didn’t have it, so I didn't take responsibility. I was careless”.

I pretty sure I read that he pleaded guilty but can't find it now. They did have the audio that I posted earlier as evidence and his admission.

In the same murder case:

In a separate trial in Rome, a Carabinieri officer is charged with allegedly using unjustified means in blindfolding Natale-Hjorth with his hands bound behind his back when the then-18 year old was brought to a police station for questioning hours after Cerciello Rega’s fatal stabbing.

Evidence in the blindfolding trial has included phone chat messages exchanged by several Carabinieri. In the chat, officers demanded that the suspects be beaten to death or dissolved in acid in retaliation for Cerciello Rega’s slaying.

Just another example of the Italian police willing to break the law.

 

[Stacyhs]

Amanda's new documentary, "The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox" will air on Hulu on Aug. 20.

Expect the usual pearl clutching and outrage by the PGP.

 

[Numbers]

Amanda's new documentary, "The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox" will air on Hulu on Aug. 20.

Expect the usual pearl clutching and outrage by the PGP.

Thanks, Stacyhs! Here's an excerpt from an article* with a quote from K. J. Steinberg, credited as creator, show runner, and one of the executive producer:

But don't call Knox's prosecutors "villains."

"I don't see them as villainous at all," Steinberg tells Entertainment Weekly. "I actually see them as good people who woke up every morning thinking they were doing the right thing and taking their jobs extraordinarily seriously. I think we all come to situations with our own biases that we come by honestly."

She continues, "The show explores the anatomy of bias. Certainly, there was misogyny and some could say racism and nationalism, and lots of isms — the show is not short on those. But Amanda firmly believes, and I actually firmly believe, that those police and the prosecutor were not bad actors. They came with a set of beliefs, they formed opinions on the scene, and those became some actual biases that...folks became entrenched in, and that entrenchment is what is and what was dangerous."

I found this opinion very interesting because I disagree with it, not only for the Knox-Sollecito case but also for other cases of official misconduct.

There's a difference between having a bias - because a police officer or prosecutor is likely to have some degree of bias simply upon seriously considering someone a suspect - and acting unlawfully to fabricate evidence - such as a coerced statement or confession from that suspect.

There's a contradiction between Knox's accounts of the interrogation - verified in part by Donnino's testimony - together with Knox's being charged with calunnia against the police and Mignini and acquitted because there was no credible evidence to show that her accounts were false, and the concept that the police and prosecutor were not "villains".

I also wonder what Steinberg is using as the definition of "villains". It seems to be "bad actors". There are 3 relevant dictionary definitions in Merriam-Webster: 1. a deliberate scoundrel or criminal, 2. one blamed for a particular evil or difficulty, and 3. a character in a story or play who opposes the hero.**

I suggest that the failure of the police and prosecutor to properly document the 5-6 November interrogation in writing, a violation of Italian procedural law, must have been intentional since the previous questionings were documented in writing. Their failure to undertake the required written documentation suggests that the police and prosecutor wished their questions and actions to be unavailable for examination. And that suggests that there was an intent to allow the violation, at a minimum, of Italian procedural laws during the interrogation.

* https://ew.com/the-twisted-tale-of-...ce-van-patten-kj-steinberg-exclusive-11742005
** https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/villain

 

[Vixen]

I'm following the topic just fine which was NOT whether "Guede leaving home as a young person and being unemployed/employed for short periods is in anyway particularly unusual." It was whether he had pattern of behavior of lying, skipping school, getting fired or quitting jobs, being totally irresponsible and stealing/burglary.

Yet again, you try to minimize Guede's behavior:
1. "leaving home as a young person"
He didn't "leave home": he was kicked out because of his behavior.

2. "unemployed/employed for short periods"
He was either fired from or quit every single job he had for years.

When Paolo Caporali kicked him out, he had no place to live so he went to his aunt and uncle in Lecco and lived with them the winter and spring of 2007. After losing or quitting his job yet again, he went back to Perugia in the late spring. The only reason he wasn't homeless at the time of the murder was because his foster mother wrote a letter of recommendation for him so he could get a tiny, one room bedsit earlier that summer. A bedsit he couldn't pay rent for because, once again, he was unemployed.

To compare him to Sollecito is ludicrous. Sollecito didn't quit school and was getting ready to graduate from college. His apartment was a one- bedroom he had to himself with no roommates and a brand-new car. He also had an income from rental units his mother had left to him. Nor did he have a reputation for lying or theft.



Stop lying. I have NEVER claimed he had CONVICTIONS for burglary which is why you CANNOT quote me doing so. I said he was caught red-handed by police with a knife in his backpack taken from the school he was in illegally which makes him a burglar. I said he was caught red-handed with stolen goods from the law office and by Tramontano in his apartment.

Like a certain US president, you just make things up whenever it suits you.


What he actually said was "He has never shown any regret, he’s always been impassive and ice-cold." So not getting hysterical and controlling himself in a society that looks with contempt on men showing 'girly' emotional weakness is being "impassive and ice-cold" in Mignini's opinion. Heh.

Mignini expects RS to feel regret over something he never did. I wonder if Mignini feels regret over murdering Kercher? Oh, wait, he didn't kill her either! But, damn, show some regret anyway, Giuliano! How ice-cold can you be?

No. Being in possession of stolen goods is not the same as burglary. Do look up the difference. Tramontano's claims were never substantiated. In addition, if you think having 'a brand new car' is an indication of innocence, then might I remark that it is no wonder you have a 34-times felon, rapist and a six-times Bankrupt as a president. People seem to have no powers of discernment these days. In addition, Sollecito's bloody footprint was on the bathmat, Mignini's was not; so once again, a false equivalence.

 

[Vixen]

Amanda's new documentary, "The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox" will air on Hulu on Aug. 20.

Expect the usual pearl clutching and outrage by the PGP.

First name terms? Do you think she'll be sharing any of her profits filthy lucre with you, her pro bono advocate and useful <ahem!> fan?

 

[Vixen]

He was investigated for lying and he admitted it:

I pretty sure I read that he pleaded guilty but can't find it now. They did have the audio that I posted earlier as evidence and his admission.

In the same murder case:


Just another example of the Italian police willing to break the law.

Oh well, that proves the Perugia police in the Kercher case were also corrupt. Logic not a strong point?

 

[Vixen]

Thanks, Stacyhs! Here's an excerpt from an article* with a quote from K. J. Steinberg, credited as creator, show runner, and one of the executive producer:


I found this opinion very interesting because I disagree with it, not only for the Knox-Sollecito case but also for other cases of official misconduct.

There's a difference between having a bias - because a police officer or prosecutor is likely to have some degree of bias simply upon seriously considering someone a suspect - and acting unlawfully to fabricate evidence - such as a coerced statement or confession from that suspect.

There's a contradiction between Knox's accounts of the interrogation - verified in part by Donnino's testimony - together with Knox's being charged with calunnia against the police and Mignini and acquitted because there was no credible evidence to show that her accounts were false, and the concept that the police and prosecutor were not "villains".

I also wonder what Steinberg is using as the definition of "villains". It seems to be "bad actors". There are 3 relevant dictionary definitions in Merriam-Webster: 1. a deliberate scoundrel or criminal, 2. one blamed for a particular evil or difficulty, and 3. a character in a story or play who opposes the hero.**

I suggest that the failure of the police and prosecutor to properly document the 5-6 November interrogation in writing, a violation of Italian procedural law, must have been intentional since the previous questionings were documented in writing. Their failure to undertake the required written documentation suggests that the police and prosecutor wished their questions and actions to be unavailable for examination. And that suggests that there was an intent to allow the violation, at a minimum, of Italian procedural laws during the interrogation.

* https://ew.com/the-twisted-tale-of-...ce-van-patten-kj-steinberg-exclusive-11742005
** https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/villain

But they did document it. The witness statement was typed up and an English translation provided; it was signed by Knox as being true to the best of her knowledge. This was after just 90 minutes in the Questura. The etymology of the word 'villain' originally referred to peasants with no legal status other than being in the service of the lords of the manor, derived from Old French brought over by French-speaking William the Conqueror. Hence these guys lived by their wits and wiles and were seen as n'e'er-do-wells by their rulers. Now the Police are public servants albeit insular to themselves in most western countries. They really do not wake up in the morning thinking who shall we falsely accuse today? They have oversight, regulations and standards. Italy is pretty much a police state, so yeah, there was a lot of undercover intelligence going on. Donnino wasn't just a 'civil servant' she was actively listening in on wiretaps which is something that would need a warrant in the UK or someone working for the intelligence agencies, without. They knew Knox and Sollecito were involved because of the undercover stuff. Building a case to present in court was the hard part, given Sollecito's <ahem> family connections ('honour bound' and omerta and all that <nudge nudge wink wink>). and ability to buy their way out of it via mafia-friendly Bongiorno and hiring a US PR Agency for Knox ('The best investment I ever made' ~ Curt Knox).

 

[Disbelief]

First name terms? Do you think she'll be sharing any of her profits filthy lucre with you, her pro bono advocate and useful <ahem!> fan?

Says the person who constantly refers to Meredith by her nickname for family and friends use.

 

[Vixen]

Says the person who constantly refers to Meredith by her nickname for family and friends use.

Mez is the name her family consents to being used. It was used in court. We don't usually refer to convicted criminals by first name terms. Even Ronnie Biggs was always called 'Biggs' or 'Ronald Biggs' .

 

[Disbelief]

Mez is the name her family consents to being used. It was used in court. We don't usually refer to convicted criminals by first name terms. Even Ronnie Biggs was always called 'Biggs' or 'Ronald Biggs' .

Yet, you are the only one here who thinks it's ok. It was a familiar name for people who knew her, not internet randos. Good thing we are not discussing any convicted criminals here, except Guede.

 

[GlennB]

Page 114 of part 32. Seriously, what's left to discuss?