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Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

You are still missing the point.

TRA's don't care about facts, they only care about getting their own way. They do not see a set of facts that go against what they are claiming, as fatal to their arguments. So long as they get the power they need to force their way through getting legislation in support of what they want, the facts do not matter to them - they never have, and never will.
I don't really care about tra's or anti tra's or any activists that deny reality, anymore than I care about flat earthers. Though it seems flat earthers are easier to argue with because at least the earth isn't called flatland.
 
I don't really care about tra's or anti tra's or any activists that deny reality, anymore than I care about flat earthers. Though it seems flat earthers are easier to argue with because at least the earth isn't called flatland.
Facts don't care whether you care or not (and nether do I). TRAs are the people we are FORCED to deal with, whether we like it or not. They have political allies on the middle-left and far left who will try to push the trans agenda through against the will of the public. For the moment, that has been staved-off in the UK with April's Supreme Court ruling, but it is within the bounds of possibility (however unlikely) that the legislature could simply change the law. It would be deeply unpopular with the general public, but I would not put it past Starmer and his extreme trendy-leftie pals to try it on. Of course, the next Tory government (or Reform if they ever get any power) would likely just change it back.
 
Starmer started off buying in to the TRA agenda but has since backed off significantly, accepting both the findings of the Cass report and the SC ruling. I suspect he finally worked out that there are far more females who object to being strip searched by males than there are males who object to being strip searched by males.
 
Starmer started off buying in to the TRA agenda but has since backed off significantly, accepting both the findings of the Cass report and the SC ruling. I suspect he finally worked out that there are far more females who object to being strip searched by males than there are males who object to being strip searched by males.
He will also have worked out that more than half the voting population are adult human females.
 
That's a sweeping claim, are you sure about that?

I disagree because I haven't seen any examples yet. one set of labels are vague gender labels the other set is factual definitions. You can just say yeah bollocks mate when they start denying reality, it's harder to do that when it's vague gender labels you're arguing about.
It doesn't actually fix anything. You just end up with transgender identified males insisting that they're every bit biologically female as any other female.

Examples:
Zooey Zephyr (MT State Representative) insists they're a biological female:
Verification of Fox claims:
Medium article:

Member Boudicca90 several years back:
 
All of which to say, polka's idea of replacing "man" with "male" won't work, because the battleground is sex segregation. The TRA propaganda is aimed at sex segregation - not overturning it, but giving men the right to override it whenever they want.

The next time a TRA tells you trans-affirming medicine* is a necessity, ask them why, if transwomen are already women?
As a stepping stone from this, I ran across an argument from a teenager recently, that sort of baffled and appalled me.

It was in the context of "gender affirming" treatments being cosmetic, not medically necessary, and inherently discriminatory because the same kinds of interventions are not available to people who don't identify as trans. Their argument was that it *should* be available to anyone, because it's critical to affirm *everyone's* gender identity, and that it's a *right* for people to be able to present however they want. Their premise was that a female getting a breast enlargement and liposuction in order to alter their physical appearance so that it aligns with their ideal image of themselves is "gender affirming treatment" and that it's vitally important that it be provided by insurance coverage for their well being. If a male wants pectoral implants and penile enlargement in order to meet the ideal image of themself, that should be covered as well.

The underlying belief is that every human has a "right" to change their bodies to look however they wish to look, and that the cost of that should be born by society as a whole.

So yeah - transhumanism. It makes me a bit concerned that perhaps the roots have gotten deeper than I thought :(
 
Transgender as a concept irritates me. It seems like male or female trans want to conform to a gender stereotype role, rather than get rid of gender roles altogether. It's like they want to keep traditional social roles rather than progress to the future.
Yep. This is part of why so many of us view the entire approach as deeply misogynistic and regressive. It inherently reinforces limiting and prescriptive stereotypes, in a way that will do far more harm to female humans than it will to male humans. It's going to drop us right back to the 1930s.
 
Just who, exactly, are you expecting to say "prove it", in this context?

The trans person will merely trot out some concept of "biologically female" that invokes the hormone concentrations they have achieved by taking pills, or else, like one I saw on Twitter, say that since he is female (self-defined) and he is also biological, he is a biological female.

Nevertheless, you need someone in a position to say the "prove it" part, and to enforce that, and to tell the trans person that he can't have what he wants unless the results are satisfactory. Satisfactory to whom, anyway? What is the point of all this?
Alternatively... "sex is a spectrum and brain sex is way more important than body sex, and brain sex totally can't be discerned by looking at chromosomes, it's all about thoughts!"
 
Why do you have to say labels aside? Sports are not sex segregated, they are woman man gender labelled segregated and lia thomas would not have been allowed to compete in female swimming.
This is fallacious. I get what you're trying to do, and I appreciate it. But it doesn't actually work that way. And right here, even if you don't realize it, you have accepted a TRA premise that is flawed.

You're retroactively changing the definition of the word "woman" so that it means the wishy-washy, humpty-dumpty, inane idea that a woman is nothing more than a feeling and a concept, completely divorced from physical reality. You're accepting the trans talking point that the word "woman" ONLY refers to gender identity.

This is false - throughout all of our childhoods, the word "woman" was commonly used to mean "female human being". All of the labeling on bathrooms and sports and prisons is based on THAT commonly understood usage, the *literal* meaning of the word woman. They are not, and have NEVER been, based on the figurative meaning of "woman" that is essentially synonymous with "feminine" or "behaving as society expects females to behave".

Don't fall for their rhetoric, or you've already surrendered 75% of the battlefield.
 
That's not really an answer to my question.
If the rules say "participation is based on sex or gender identity" then it doesn't matter if you change the label from "women's swim team" to "female swim team" or even to "beaver swim team" or "paperclip throwing team".

Are you at all familiar with AGILE process methods for IT development and implementation? One of the cornerstones of that is that the teams get to name themselves whatever they want to, on the hypothesis that it builds morale. So yeah, one of the units in my IT department is now "Team Pizza Party". It's has nothing at all to do with their function or what work they perform.

Same premise here - the name given to it doesn't dictate anything about participation, or even the function of the team. Calling it "women's swim team" is pragmatic, because it communicates to other people outside of the team what it's about. Life would be a lot easier for me if our stupid AGILE teams gave themselves names that had something to do with their function - it's a nightmare trying to figure out who I need to contact about an issue when I'm given a list of "pizza party" "cinco de mayo" and "hippos" to choose from.
 
Interesting. Breast implants following mastectomies are generally covered by insurance even though they are not considered medically necessary and are in fact considered a possible complication. In other cases, breast implants are considered elective cosmetic surgery. Assuming a mastectomy is medically successful in treating the underlying pathology, why do we justify the additional step of providing a prosthetic purely for aesthetic value?
It's considered reconstruction. Similarly, if you're in a car accident and end up with a couple of broken teeth, medical (not dental) insurance will cover partial plates, even if you can still eat just fine on the other side of your mouth - it's reconstructing what was there prior to the injury or illness. Insurance doesn't cover massive knockers as implants after a mastectomy, they're generally required to be more or less the same size as they were prior to the medically necessary removal.
 
Do they? Gender might be a spectrum blah blah but sex? Demonstrably not correct.
Just because you can clearly see that the emperor has no clothes doesn't mean that the rest of the audience isn't loudly proclaiming how extraordinary the emperor's new outfit is, and how stunning and brave they are for wearing it.

Logic and rational thinking can only go so far against pure faith-based belief systems. Trans is the modern day deity-less intelligent design, it's busy fallaciously arguing a profoundly unscientific premise, and trying to redefine science in order to force things to fit their premise.
 
I think the important point we can all agree on is that the government should have the authority to control your body, to allow or deny whatever medical procedures we may actually want. The government knows best for everyone.
On the highly questionable assumption that you're interested in an actual genuine discussion rather than just tossing around sarcasm for the internet points...

Children do NOT have the authority to control their own bodies. Children do NOT have the right to seek whatever medical procedures they wish. The government is within their purview to create and interpret laws that protect children from exploitative behavior by adults, especially in situations where children are unlikely to have a complete understanding of the long-term impacts. The government makes laws that prohibit the sale of alcohol, tobacco, and firearms to minors irrespective of how much those children might really really want them. They do so because the risks and the damage to those minors is identifiable, and because kids suck at making good decisions.

This is the same situation. Unethical adults are exploiting the natural pubescent anxieties of youth and plying them with drugs and surgical interventions that demonstrably and incontrovertibly do harm to those children. Those unscrupulous and borderline-predatory medical practitioners make the false claim that "kids know who they are" when everyone on the goddamned planet is fully aware that a fundamental part of puberty is the formation of a stable adult identity and personality structure, and that no, kids do NOT know who they are, and they absolutely do NOT fully understand the future impact of sterilizing and maiming themselves when they're 13.
 
Here in tolerant California, there had been much ado, with jurors deciding in the end that Darren Merager simply was behaving like any other woman in a shower, spa or changing room.
Here in tolerant CA, Darren Merager was simply behaving like any other women in a shower, spa, or changing room, by having her dick and balls out.
 
Thanks for the link, they actually do, wow. I started reading that and they are failing at the first hurdle. Their premise is incorrect so everything that follows can be ignored.
We've been saying this for over a decade, and they haven't listened. But hey, welcome to the party ;)

ETA: It's worth pointing out that a WHOLE lot of posters on ISF don't take part in this thread because they have been told and have accepted that those of us opposing this sheer irrational lunacy are only doing it out of far-right hatred and bigotry. We regularly end up with fringe resets when someone finally ventures up some curiosity and joins in. We will post something about: sex-is-a-spectrum gobbledygook; brain-sex idiocy; medical intervention on very young children; the irreversibility of puberty blockers; the health risks of cross-sex hormones on both children and adults; the lack of support for mental improvement claims related to transition; the lack of reduction in suicidality, anxiety, and depression after the initial "honeymoon" phase; the role of paraphilias and pornography in a not-insignificant portion of trans-identified males; voyeurism and exhibitionism by trans-identified male against females; the disproportionate incidence of sexual offending among trans-identified males; the lack of concrete support for the claims of vulnerability and assaults against transgender-identified individuals when controlling for prostitutes in Brazil; and any number of other items that come up.

In almost every case, that newbie reacts with disbelief, and often dismisses our concerns and our claims on the basis that "oh no, that would never happen". The idea that this is what's actually going on is so insane, so irrational that it must be wrong - they can't accept it. A rather large number of self-styled skeptics won't even consider the reality, and they flounce. Many are so invested in the ideology they've been told that they simply assume that any counter-evidence is lies made up by the right wing.

So I applaud you for being open minded enough to actually consider the information you're being given, and for actually considering it logically and rationally. Stick around long enough, and you'll find a whole lot of things that you would assume couldn't ever happen but that do happen over and over again.
 
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Don't fall for their rhetoric, or you've already surrendered 75% of the battlefield.
One of the bizarre features of this particular debate is what happens when you try to tell someone that you're okay with them using "woman" to mean anyone who feels constrained by the norms of femininity (whether they like it or not) if they are okay with you using the same word to mean adult human female. After all, words typically have multiple meanings and there's no need for us to be prescriptivist about how other people use words.
 
But he doesn't actually define sex at all.
If we take his argument seriously, there is no clearly discernible concept of overarching "sex," only the various components such as gametic sex, chromosomal sex, morphological sex, etc. and their various subcomponents, some of which were listed out. How to roll these up into something both quantifiable and bimodal is left as an exercise to the reader, which is a major shortcoming of the article.
He never says what the axis is at all. No attempt at constructing an actual axis is made.
It is perfectly appropriate to fault him for this omission, especially given the inclusion of a faux graph.
I don't think the purpose is to actually establish a continuum of sex that we can use to evaluate people, but just to muddy the waters.
I'm pretty sure he'd say that the goal is to describe actual complexity that exists because of natural variation (or something similar) but he'd probably agree that it's not about evaluating people for the sake of assigning sex in an overarching sense of the term.
If you had such an axis, then one of the results is that you've find a lot of trans identifying males would still end up solidly on the "male" side.
The sort of people who tend to think of sex as a spectrum wouldn't try to put a dotted line somewhere in the middle and declare "males to the right of this line." That would be trying to arbitrarily impose a binary upon a spectrum, from their POV.
But the trans issue has nothing to do with alternative medicine.
The main feature of alternative medicine is the lack of scientific support for the treatments, so we'd have to ask whether gender affirming medicine suffers from this shortcoming.
 
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Well, no. If we take his argument seriously, there is no overarching "sex," only the various components such as gametic sex, chromosomal sex, morphological sex, etc. and their various subcomponents, some of which were listed out.
No. If we take his argument seriously, the sex is definable and quantifiable, you could graph it, and doing so would produce a bimodal distribution.
I'm pretty sure he'd say that the goal is to describe actual complexity that exists because of natural variation (or something similar) but he'd probably agree that it's not about evaluating people for the sake of assigning sex in an overarching sense of the term.
Indeed, you can't actually do that if your purpose is to breach the barriers of sex segregation.
The sort of people who tend to think of sex as a spectrum wouldn't try to put a dotted line somewhere in the middle and declare "males to the right of this line." That would be trying to arbitrarily impose a binary upon a spectrum, from their POV.
The sort of people who think of sex as a spectrum don't want to accurately describe it at all. They want to make it as muddy as possible.
The main feature of alternative medicine is the lack of scientific support for the treatments, so we'd have to ask whether gender affirming medicine suffers from this shortcoming.
It does, we know it does, it's obvious it does, and the fact that he doesn't even touch on that sort of gives the game away.
 
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