Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Ziggurat]

Yeah you might be correct, maybe I haven't. But then they are just arguing nonsense aren't they?

Yes.

Why is anyone letting anyone get away with factual nonsense?

Because for a lot of people, the facts never mattered in the first place. This is just the natural progression of postmodernism, where objective reality doesn't exist and everything is just a power struggle between oppressors and oppressed.

You mentioned puberty blockers? My youngest daughter wanted them, really wanted them (i reckon because of listening to people who had access to the internet) and we said no. She's gone through puberty and it seems all her issues have resolved themselves without puberty blockers. I think puberty blockers stop people from learning how to deal with stuff.

You were right to not allow it. You are also fortunate that her issues resolved, that's not a guarantee even when you do everything right. But the odds are certainly better if you do.

 

[Rolfe]

On the subject of inappropriate dress and wearing fetish gear in public, I present this additional juicy cherry.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1933549429447127449

The shocking thing is not so much that this pervert is doing this, it is that (like the woodwork teacher with the outsized knockers) it is being tolerated by the people in charge. Because we must not offend the Holy Trans.

And don't tell me that we have to allow this because if we don't we'll have to sack a man who wears discreet eye makeup when doing a TV interview. I mean get real here.

 

[Agatha]

Adam "Isla Bryson" Graham is demanding a return to a women's prison, and says that the (doomed, IMO) claim by McCloud to the ECHR to overturn the Supreme Court's clarification of existing law will return all trans-identifying male prisoners to the female prison estate.

Isla Bryson demands to be moved back to female jail after slamming court ruling

Despite the sex offender admitting that life in male jails has meant being able to forge romantic relationships with male prisoners, Bryson says a challenge of the legal ruling could see a move from the male estate.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk

Kyle "Zoe" Watts' conviction for weapons offences was reported by the BBC as if he were female; they didn't even bother to note that he claims to be a transwoman. I have sent in another complaint to the BBC on the grounds of factual inaccuracy; the BBC should report facts, not fantasies in a convicted criminal's head.

 

[Rolfe]

Adam "Isla Bryson" Graham is demanding a return to a women's prison, and says that the (doomed, IMO) claim by McCloud to the ECHR to overturn the Supreme Court's clarification of existing law will return all trans-identifying male prisoners to the female prison estate.

Isla Bryson demands to be moved back to female jail after slamming court ruling

Despite the sex offender admitting that life in male jails has meant being able to forge romantic relationships with male prisoners, Bryson says a challenge of the legal ruling could see a move from the male estate.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk

Kyle "Zoe" Watts' conviction for weapons offences was reported by the BBC as if he were female; they didn't even bother to note that he claims to be a transwoman. I have sent in another complaint to the BBC on the grounds of factual inaccuracy; the BBC should report facts, not fantasies in a convicted criminal's head.

He's doing it to get attention. He's succeeding. (He was never in a women's prison but I bet he'd like to be.) I'm hoping the Record published that to demonstrate that this is about more than who uses what toilet and that prisons (and women's refuges and so on) are the bigger risk.

Following on from the Lolita bus, it's quite striking how many of the more flamboyant members of the trans cult display infantile behaviours. It's not just about dressing up in female clothes, it's about pretending to be juvenile - anything from a teenage Lolita to a baby girl. This ought to be a huge red flag because it's well understood that these people dress as their fetish, but because it's trans, it has to be pandered to.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1934163230923936190

There are some more examples in the replies to the thread, including one grown man dressed as a little girl lying on a baby-change table in a public bathroom with his nappy exposed. Many of these men actually urinate and defaecate in the nappies they wear. One person in the thread points out that the "adult baby" has been a recognised fetish for a long time, and that by attaching themselves to the trans cult these men have now obtained permission to act out their fetish in public.

This is where the push to "be kind" and let this tiny, tiny number of very fragile, vulnerable men with disabling gender dysphoria (who are all incredibly lovely people and would never do anything to upset anyone) use women's toilets has got us. Rapists in women's prisons, hulking teenage boys beating girls in college sports and walking around naked in their changing rooms when they're trying to get dressed, men claiming to be lesbians insisting on being included in lesbian dating groups and men joining rape self-help sessions to get off on listening to the tales of trauma. Young children being encouraged to believe that they can literally become the sex they aren't and fast-tracked into appallingly damaging medical and surgical interventions that will leave them sterile, anorgasmic and with brittle bones. Men who cross-dress half the week being given awards meant for women in business, or on the stage.

And nobody is allowed to raise the slightest objection on pain of being accused of a hate crime.

 

[p0lka]

Because for a lot of people, the facts never mattered in the first place. This is just the natural progression of postmodernism, where objective reality doesn't exist and everything is just a power struggle between oppressors and oppressed.

ah, yeah there's a lot of people where if you question anything they have said, they treat it like an attack rather than a question which is really annoying. I keep asking questions anyway, their annoyance and fleeing from the question just shows they were never correct in the first place.

Any male that says they're a female wouldn't be able to defend their position in the slightest. They would have to accept they are incorrect, or do the above.
Any male that says they're a woman immediately adds all the stuff you just said. They have a gender variable rather than a physical fact to argue about, so facts are irrelevant in this case cos it's about gender. Which is fine as gender is a wishy washy social construct in the first place imo. But, changing all labels from woman and man to male and female gets rid of the wishy washiness.

 

[Brainster]

Finished listening to the Protocol, the NY Times podcast. Some thoughts:

1. The podcast makes it clear that one of the big benefits of puberty blockers is that it makes trans people more likely to pass (particularly among transwomen).

2. The segment on the Cass Review is mostly good although they do let the TRA advocate go on and on about how Cass had never treated trans kids. She didn't need to do so to find out that studies on the results of gender dysphoria treatment were lacking.

3. Shows end with a barrage of individual testimonies. Obviously the plural of anecdote.

 

[Rolfe]

I'm going to put this juicy cherry in spoiler tags because it's pretty unpleasant .

https://twitter.com/x/status/1934527967985827986

He can conduct himself as he pleases of course, but please quit insisting that women should accept these men in our private spaces and in our society. It's sickening.

I suppose he's one of the "dolls" (cheap plastic non-functional facsimiles of women) that some people are anxious to "protect".

 

[Ziggurat]

But, changing all labels from woman and man to male and female gets rid of the wishy washiness.

"Woman" was never wishy washy until the TRA's claimed it was wishy washy. By renaming things, all you do is concede their definition of "woman", after which they will similarly assault the word "female". That won't change anything. The fight will still be the same, except you will have given ground. It's one thing to give ground in a compromise where you get something in return, but you won't actually get anything return for this. The TRA's haven't agreed to let bathrooms be female-only because you labeled them "female" instead of "woman". There is no actual constituency out there who thinks it's OK to let transwomen into a bathroom labeled "woman" but not OK to let them into a bathroom labeled "female".

 

[WilliamAB]

I get "this page doesn't exist" message.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yeah i know logically what you're saying makes sense, but one of those we view from the inside and that's what makes it subjectively different.

I disagree entirely. We developed terminology to indicate both sex and species across a very large number of critters that we interact with - including humans. There's no good reason to abandon a high-utility term to appease the subjective feelings of some few people with mental health issues.

Additionally, the only people "viewing it from the inside" are the people who insist that they're somehow not the sex they actually are, and wish to coerce the entire rest of the planet to pretend like our eyes and ears and brains don't work, and to engage in the fiction that we somehow perceive them as "women".

It makes sense logically, because it's logical. The opposing argument is completely illogical.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Offtopic: I used to be able to copy posts and quotes and insert them in my posts, wtf is going on with this new weird forum ◊◊◊◊?

When you're composing your quote, hit the "[ ]" button in the upper right corner, just to the left of the save icon. It will toggle the edit window to old-school Vbulletin style.

If I'm trying to include multiple posts in my response, I find it's a lot easier if I open those posts in separate tabs, then quote them in CB style, then paste them in to my main window. It's tedious, but it keeps it clean.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Equally Only male humans can subjectively "view from the inside" how it is to be male, the rest of us have only imagination and empathy.
What's your point?

I surmise that the point is that males are incapable of having a "view from the inside" of what it's like to be a female human being, and thus they are incapable of actually having any reasonable basis for saying they "feel like a woman". And the opposite is also true - females cannot know what it's like to be a male, and hence any claim to "be a man" on the part of a female is nothing more than fantasy and wishfulness.

 

[p0lka]

I'm going to put this juicy cherry in spoiler tags because it's pretty unpleasant .

https://twitter.com/x/status/1934527967985827986

He can conduct himself as he pleases of course, but please quit insisting that women should accept these men in our private spaces and in our society. It's sickening.

I suppose he's one of the "dolls" (cheap plastic non-functional facsimiles of women) that some people are anxious to "protect".

(Link didn't work for me but I can guess). See, there's that language wishy washiness again. Flip it to female and male and it's so much clearer.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yeah you might be correct, maybe I haven't. But then they are just arguing nonsense aren't they? Why is anyone letting anyone get away with factual nonsense? it's easy to demonstrate they are incorrect.

It should be easy to demonstrate that they're incorrect, yes. And for most of us, it is easy.

The challenge is that they've flooded the entire internet and a good chunk of the world with repeated nonsense. They logic chop and gish gallop and fallacy of the heap every logically sound argument. They insist that sex is a spectrum, therefore it's possible for someone to be part male and part female; they then assert that it's entirely possible for someone to have a completely male body but somehow have a female mind and therefore we can't say that a transgender identified male is actually male, their brains are female so at minimum they're "intersex" and at maximum they're completely female because brains are more important than bodies.

They insist that you can't tell with 100% accuracy what the sex of another person is without closely inspecting their genitals. This is despite the observable (and tested) fact that humans are incredibly good at identifying the sex of other post-pubescent humans with about 99% accuracy - pretty much all anisogamous species are incredibly good at identifying which sex other members of their species are. But because there are some incredibly few androgynous people, and because with supreme effort and massive surgical intervention it's possible to fool some people, they assert that sex is totally a mystery... and this means that any social separation of spaces or services on the basis of sex isn't actually on the basis of sex, it's on the basis of gender, and since gender is socially constructed, that means that the female showers at the gym have always been meant to be used by anyone who happens to feel like a "woman" in whatever humpty-dumpty way that individual feels like defining "woman" on that particular day.

It's rampantly irrational and illogical... but a surprising number of people have bought in to the dogma wholesale.

You mentioned puberty blockers? My youngest daughter wanted them, really wanted them (i reckon because of listening to people who had access to the internet) and we said no. She's gone through puberty and it seems all her issues have resolved themselves without puberty blockers. I think puberty blockers stop people from learning how to deal with stuff.

Good on you, I'm relieved that you resisted the pressure to give in and acted in your child's best interest.

Puberty blockers definitely interrupt normal development, including cognitive development. They're also a detriment to youth becoming comfortable with their adult bodies, which is a kind of important aspect of human growth. Lots of other risks as well, but I think you're spot on that they prevent children from learning how to deal with becoming adults.

 

[Rolfe]

(Link didn't work for me but I can guess). See, there's that language wishy washiness again. Flip it to female and male and it's so much clearer.

No. It's a perfectly normal link to a Twitter post and it's working for me. If you haven't seen the video then you have no basis to understand the title.

 

[d4m10n]

Finished listening to the Protocol, the NY Times podcast. Some thoughts:

. . .

3. Shows end with a barrage of individual testimonies. Obviously the plural of anecdote.

That part felt a lot like Radiolab or This American Life rather than reportage.

Don't think I'd've objected to it at all except that they left off a very specific set of lived experiences which really should matter.

 

[p0lka]

"Woman" was never wishy washy until the TRA's claimed it was wishy washy. By renaming things, all you do is concede their definition of "woman", after which they will similarly assault the word "female". That won't change anything. The fight will still be the same, except you will have given ground. It's one thing to give ground in a compromise where you get something in return, but you won't actually get anything return for this. The TRA's haven't agreed to let bathrooms be female-only because you labeled them "female" instead of "woman". There is no actual constituency out there who thinks it's OK to let transwomen into a bathroom labeled "woman" but not OK to let them into a bathroom labeled "female".

I was born in july 1969 in the UK, growing up gender was always wishy washy. Constantly told by society and tv or books and anyone you came into contact with to conform to typical gender roles in society or else. I wanted my ear pierced, but no something about skinheads or looking weird or something, so I did it with an icecube anyway.

It's not so much renaming things, as adding clarity to the vague terms 'man woman', and making them much more clearly defined 'male female'.

I would love to watch someone argue using male female instead of man woman, that would be cool.

 

[p0lka]

I disagree entirely. We developed terminology to indicate both sex and species across a very large number of critters that we interact with - including humans. There's no good reason to abandon a high-utility term to appease the subjective feelings of some few people with mental health issues.

Additionally, the only people "viewing it from the inside" are the people who insist that they're somehow not the sex they actually are, and wish to coerce the entire rest of the planet to pretend like our eyes and ears and brains don't work, and to engage in the fiction that we somehow perceive them as "women".

It makes sense logically, because it's logical. The opposing argument is completely illogical.

By 'viewing it from the inside' I meant we humans all of us. There's only one example on that list that we all of us have an internal experience of, so can internally have opinions we can express. A consequence of that is disagreement cos we have the ability to communicate with words and stuff.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I get "this page doesn't exist" message.

Twitter changes some stuff, and not all posts are publicly visible. I don't know exactly what the rules are... but for some you have to log in to see it. This is one of those.

 

[Ziggurat]

I was born in july 1969 in the UK, growing up gender was always wishy washy.

Sex expression was wishy washy. Sex wasn't. And everyone knew that "woman" and "man" were still terms of sex.

I would love to watch someone argue using male female instead of man woman, that would be cool.

That's already been happening. It's not an improvement. The true fight has never actually been about words, those are just proxies. Changing which words we fight over won't change the underlying battle.