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Merged Due process in the US

Hercules56 said:
The indictment said he was transporting drugs. The Grand Jury agreed, and charged him with transporting drugs for illegal purposes.
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An allegation is not a statement of fact. A criminal charge is not itself evidence of a crime.

You presented it as a statement of fact and then repeatedly denied that you claimed he was guilty. Presenting an allegation as a statement of fact is an assumption of guilt.
 
johnny karate said:
An allegation is not a statement of fact. A criminal charge is not itself evidence of a crime.

You presented it as a statement of fact and then repeatedly denied that you claimed he was guilty. Presenting an allegation as a statement of fact is an assumption of guilt.
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The indictment was based on Probable Cause, and that is evidence.
 
Hercules56 said:
Socially.

Garcia was hanging out with MS-13 members at a Home Depot. They were not strangers to him.
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This motte and bailey nonsense isn't gonna work here. You're trying to use association with gang members as evidence of guilt, but when pressed you have to retreat to "he happened to know a few socially." But that's not really evidence of guilt, is it? Nearly everyone in the country has a friend of a friend with a record. Are we all now "criminal associates?"

There is overwhelming evidence that he is the victim, yet you cannot stop yourself from shoving him into the criminal category. I encourage you to take a minute to do some introspection and find out exactly what bias is causing you to do this, though I fear it may be too late for that.
 
I Am The Scum said:
This motte and bailey nonsense isn't gonna work here. You're trying to use association with gang members as evidence of guilt, but when pressed you have to retreat to "he happened to know a few socially." But that's not really evidence of guilt, is it? Nearly everyone in the country has a friend of a friend with a record. Are we all now "criminal associates?"

There is overwhelming evidence that he is the victim, yet you cannot stop yourself from shoving him into the criminal category. I encourage you to take a minute to do some introspection and find out exactly what bias is causing you to do this, though I fear it may be too late for that.
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IMO it's a deliberate attempt to lower the evidential bar. If pretty much everyone is a "criminal associate" then pretty much everyone can be seized and deported to an El Salvadorian death jail and the authorities would have the veneer of justification.
 
Hercules56 said:
You're saying the Grand Jury indicted without seeing any evidence?
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I’m saying that whatever evidence they saw wasn’t validated or subject to challenge and was presented by an unethical and lawless DOJ. I’m saying that an indictment is not evidence. I’m saying you haven’t see any evidence at all and have already assumed guilt. I’m saying you have little or no understanding of how any of this works and have jumped to a conclusion based on this lack of understanding.
 
Hercules56 said:
Nope. But folks who hang out with gang members tend to be bad news.
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Being at the same place at the same time with other people does not mean you are “hanging out” with those people. You continue to uncritically accept the Trump administration’s framing and it’s painful to watch someone exhibit this much gullibility.
 
Hercules56 said:
Prove it.
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I'm not even American & I can answer that one-:

An American federal grand jury has from 16 to 23 jurors, with twelve votes usually required to return an indictment. All grand jury proceedings are conducted behind closed doors, without a presiding judge. The prosecutors are tasked with arranging for the appearance of witnesses, as well as drafting the order in which they are called, and take part in the questioning of witnesses.
The targets of the grand jury or their lawyers have no right to appear before a grand jury unless they are invited, nor do they have a right to present exculpatory evidence.
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Wikipedia
 
johnny karate said:
Being at the same place at the same time with other people does not mean you are “hanging out” with those people. You continue to uncritically accept the Trump administration’s framing and it’s painful to watch someone exhibit this much gullibility.
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Inserts picture of person who definately is "hanging out" with a criminal and people trafficker, for illustrative purposes-:

Trum&Epstein.webp
 
johnny karate said:
Being at the same place at the same time with other people does not mean you are “hanging out” with those people. You continue to uncritically accept the Trump administration’s framing and it’s painful to watch someone exhibit this much gullibility.
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Garcia knew the guys he was soliciting work with.
 
I Am The Scum said:
This motte and bailey nonsense isn't gonna work here. You're trying to use association with gang members as evidence of guilt, but when pressed you have to retreat to "he happened to know a few socially." But that's not really evidence of guilt, is it? Nearly everyone in the country has a friend of a friend with a record. Are we all now "criminal associates?"

There is overwhelming evidence that he is the victim, yet you cannot stop yourself from shoving him into the criminal category. I encourage you to take a minute to do some introspection and find out exactly what bias is causing you to do this, though I fear it may be too late for that.
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Pretty much... everyone... I associate with is a criminal. Work, play, everyone but my wife and kids.

I guess I should turn myself in...
 
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