theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Honestly I have no serious objections to gender-queering. If the male VP wants to wear some makeup, fine with me.
Transwomen are not Women - Part 15
- Thread starter d4m10n
- Start date
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Wrong. Completely wrong.
Males have a physical advantage in ALL sports that involve ANY physicality.
ALL contact sports
ALL collision sports
ALL combat sports
ALL sports that involve running - with just one exception: ultramarathon (distances over 300 km)
ALL sports that involve jumping
ALL racquet and batting sports
ALL throwing sports
ALL water sports
The reasons are many and various, but they all boil down to the fact that men are bigger, taller, stronger, faster, have a greater lung capacity, have a greater muscle density with more fast-twitch fibres, have a higher bone density and have a more advantageous Q angle
Since transgender self-indentified men are biologically, anatomically and physiologically male, they should not be competing in ANY sports involving physicality against women.
The photo is from the NCAA Championships in 2022. Its the 500 yd freestyle. Thomas won by two body-lengths, and it was clear to see watching the race that while the girls were swimming as fast as they could, Thomas was clearly sandbagging.
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theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
"Can you spot the dude in this photo?"
"I dunno, it looks to me like a bunch of ignorant women trying to swim at the collegiate championship level."
One of the most tragicomic TRA shenanigans is when they desperately scramble to avoid granting a conclusion they secretly agree with.
"I dunno, it looks to me like a bunch of ignorant women trying to swim at the collegiate championship level."
One of the most tragicomic TRA shenanigans is when they desperately scramble to avoid granting a conclusion they secretly agree with.
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<SNIP> for breach of rule 0 and rule 12.
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Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2003
- Messages
- 61,674
I'm not sure how male physicality differs from female physicality.
Males have an advantage in strength, speed, endurance, size, lung capacity, heart size, bone density, and a few more. There aren't many sports where these things aren't a significant advantage. Competitive swimming absolutely isn't among that rare group. Male biology absolutely provides a significant advantage in competitive swimming, and that was the sport under discussion.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Cosmic Yak, I don't think I have addressed your posts at all.
Good news, the Darlington nurses have won. Wes Streeting has told the health board to obey the law.
Darlington nurses win right to a female-only changing room
The Darlington nurses launched a legal action saying transgender policies put them at risk, deprived them of dignity and breached their human rights.www.dailymail.co.uk
The Fife case is still ongoing though.
The father of "Rose" Henderson, the male nurse who insisted on changing with the women and thus set all this going, who was also a nurse but is currently suspended, went on trial today for indecent assault on a girl under 14, two counts of gross indecency with a boy under 14, inciting a girl under 14 to commit an act of gross indecency and attempted rape of a female under 16. This mirrors the case of "Aimée" Challoner, the son of the LibDem official who was convicted of keeping a girl captive in his attic and torturing her.
One of the disturbing things that came out in the Cass report was that children who were referred to the Tavistock with "gender dysphoria" had an absolutely ridiculously higher percentage of parents on the sex offenders register compared to the population as a whole. I don't know what's going on here, I'm not a psychiatrist, but somebody needs to investigate it.
This is not a healthy subculture. Porn, exhibitionism, sexual offending, child abuse and other thoroughly undesirable behaviours are rampant. Society needs to stop imagining the marginalised shrinking violet "transwoman" who "just wants to pee" and realise what is actually going on here. Given that this is June, simply looking out the window at the latest Pride parade can probably provide a fair sample.
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Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2003
- Messages
- 61,674
We know exactly what's going on, and it isn't new. Some people become trans as a trauma response to sexual abuse. By changing their sex, they hope to become sexually undesirable to their abuser. This is one of the reasons that simply transitioning people without serious therapy has always been deeply unethical.
angrysoba
Philosophile
There is a podcast series by the New York Times that goes into the origins of the use of puberty blockers on gender dysphoric children.
It seems that the first person to be given them for gender dysphoria went to the same doctor who had first used them for precocious puberty. (There’s also a throwaway line that the same drugs were used for female gymnasts in Eastern European countries).
It’s interesting because the person interviewed who had been born a girl talks about being a guinea pig and also someone who lives their entire life concealing their previous identity. They also say something like “even though it was experimental I saw no alternative. Give it to me or I am leaving… leaving this world…I mean… I wasn’t going to do that.”
I think anyone skeptical already of puberty blockers for gender dysphoric people may wonder if the treatment led to a well-rounded life. The person interviewed sounds reclusive and not the rough macho personality they claimed to be in childhood.
It seems that the first person to be given them for gender dysphoria went to the same doctor who had first used them for precocious puberty. (There’s also a throwaway line that the same drugs were used for female gymnasts in Eastern European countries).
It’s interesting because the person interviewed who had been born a girl talks about being a guinea pig and also someone who lives their entire life concealing their previous identity. They also say something like “even though it was experimental I saw no alternative. Give it to me or I am leaving… leaving this world…I mean… I wasn’t going to do that.”
I think anyone skeptical already of puberty blockers for gender dysphoric people may wonder if the treatment led to a well-rounded life. The person interviewed sounds reclusive and not the rough macho personality they claimed to be in childhood.
Rolfe
Adult human female
I guess you're right. There are victims on both sides, for sure.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Beg to differ on this.
It might be true that there are more male posters here than female posters. That said, the portion of posters in this thread that are female is pretty high compared to most of the other threads on ISF, as females are quite underrepresented. Beyond that, the most engaged and persistent posters are about 50/50 male and female.
But the way in which you "argue" with male posters who oppose or challenge your view is quite materially different from the way in which you argue with Rolfe, or myself, or the other female posters who bounce in and out as time permits. You're far more respectful and considerate toward male posters, even those who hold fairly vehement and extreme views, than you are toward female posters. For example, you are unrelentingly dismissive and rude toward Rolfe... but you're much less so toward smartcooky - despite the fact that smartcooky holds views that are at least as vociferous as Rolfe's. And you're far more polite to theprestige and Ziggurat than you are to me, despite our arguments and tones being quite similar.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
You seem to have missed the point. You've repeatedly accused Rolfe of cherry picking, and have dismissed the points they make regarding the impact of some few special males being granted the privilege to override female boundaries on their say so. When Rolfe has made the argument that there are a lot of incredibly violent, aggressive, dangerous, and unhinged males who identify as trans and insist they must be given access to female-only spaces, you've hand-waved away those arguments as being 'only a few' or 'virtually nonexistent' or you've fallen back to claiming nothing like that happens in your state with the implication that it clearly doesn't happen and is all made up. For all intents, you've stuck your fingers in your ears and closed your eyes.
So yeah - you accuse Rolfe of cherry picking, so they're providing you more and more and more cherries. At some point, it's no longer cherry picking, cherries are the dominant fruit.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Or Washington, or Oregon...
Rolfe
Adult human female
I think it might have been Mycroft who actually coined the phrase "look what a juicy cherry you've found there" for any particularly horrific example of trans behaviour, but it was all over the thread. Any egregious trans behaviour was just "a juicy cherry" and meant nothing when set aside the serried ranks of the shy retiring marginalised trans-identifying men who had to be allowed anything they wanted irrespective of the collateral damage. Someone else started asking just when the cherry orchard would be big enough for it to mean something. Thermal decided that "a juicy cherry" meant something else though, and started attacking me on that basis. I kind of lost the plot at that point.
Thermal
August Member
I have no idea what you are talking about, EC, especially in regards to a "tone " I used with you. Your "tone" with me, I recall quite clearly from your last reply:
If "my tone" was anywhere approaching on par with yours, pretty positive I'd be actioned, and I'm not entirely clear on why you weren't, especially with at least three moderators actively in the discussion.
I largely bowed out of this thread a while back, because the toxicity was getting over the top, and I hope you will excuse me for not picking back up where we were three weeks ago.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Double post
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smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
A case of the apple not falling far from the tree....
... and even more apples not falling far from their trees!
angrysoba
Philosophile
Apparently this NYT podcast is provoking some anger in the trans rights world.
That is not surprising as it seems to take a sympathetic but skeptical view towards the youth gender medicine it is reporting on (I wonder if Jesse Singal’s forthcoming book is going to be made redundant before it even come out).
At the end of the first episode, FG (transitioned person in the first episode) seems to disagree with a lot of trans ideology believing that much of it is just a fashion such as a kind of rebellion. Unlike his own transition which he considers more legitimate.
Moving on from the first episode in which the female to male “FG”, the second one focuses on the Dutch clinic that begun giving puberty blockers to a number of younger people.
We also hear from someone called “Minoum” (I think) who explains how they were adamant about not wanting to go through puberty.
We hear that at this point in the history of the treatments, there was an emphasis on watchful waiting, that most transgender ideation resolves itself at puberty. Minoum, who went from boy to girl, says that there was a big emphasis on figuring out if she had been abused. We hear that the researchers themselves knew that many people who came to their clinic may be gay or autistic and to reject treatment for them.
The suggestion seems to be that many of the cautious approaches that the Dutch used were abandoned when the protocol was adopted in America. The Dutch researchers also say that their own samples were too small to make widespread generalizations….
It does feel as if the podcast is saying, as gently as it can, that the evidence is nowhere near reliable enough to justify treatment in the way it has become common in the US.
That is not surprising as it seems to take a sympathetic but skeptical view towards the youth gender medicine it is reporting on (I wonder if Jesse Singal’s forthcoming book is going to be made redundant before it even come out).
At the end of the first episode, FG (transitioned person in the first episode) seems to disagree with a lot of trans ideology believing that much of it is just a fashion such as a kind of rebellion. Unlike his own transition which he considers more legitimate.
Moving on from the first episode in which the female to male “FG”, the second one focuses on the Dutch clinic that begun giving puberty blockers to a number of younger people.
We also hear from someone called “Minoum” (I think) who explains how they were adamant about not wanting to go through puberty.
We hear that at this point in the history of the treatments, there was an emphasis on watchful waiting, that most transgender ideation resolves itself at puberty. Minoum, who went from boy to girl, says that there was a big emphasis on figuring out if she had been abused. We hear that the researchers themselves knew that many people who came to their clinic may be gay or autistic and to reject treatment for them.
The suggestion seems to be that many of the cautious approaches that the Dutch used were abandoned when the protocol was adopted in America. The Dutch researchers also say that their own samples were too small to make widespread generalizations….
It does feel as if the podcast is saying, as gently as it can, that the evidence is nowhere near reliable enough to justify treatment in the way it has become common in the US.
Rolfe
Adult human female
It could be as Ziggurat said, but then neither "Aimée" nor "Rosalie" has ever accused their father of abusing them.
At the time the Dutch protocol was developed watchful waiting was the standard approach. Under watchful waiting, children were allowed to display gender nonconformity in clothing, toy choices etc. but were not affirmed in the belief that they were the other sex. This was considered essential in predicting whether gender dysphoria was likely to persist past puberty. If children were socially transitioned or affirmed it was thought this would prevent natural resolution of gender dysphoria and make it impossible to determine whether the persistence was due to social reinforcement. Watchful waiting was branded 'conversion therapy' in the AAP 2018 policy statement written by Rafferty, based on no evidence whatsoever.
angrysoba
Philosophile
I do wonder if the NYT podcast might be seen as a kind of "limited hangout", as the third episode (which I haven't finished yet) brings the Dutch protocol to the US. Initially, a doctor called Laura Edwards-Leeper attempted to follow it, but scaled it down massively. Whereas the Dutch had used watchful waiting and a barrage of interviews over the course of at least a year to determine there was no abuse, autism or other mental health disorders, Edwards-Leeper decided that it would be impossible to do that by herself from one clinic in Boston. She reduced the amount of face-to-face contact by required assessment by a psychiatrist or therapist over a period of 8 months.
However, social media and perhaps trans celebrities had increased the visibility of transgenderism and the numbers presenting at the clinics shot up.
At around this time she attended a conference where she was apparently berated by Joanna Olson-Kennedy who argued that the protocol she was using, itself a slimmed down version of the Dutch Protocol was "gate-keeping". She was also the one who started to use the threat of "Do you want a dead son or a living daughter" (or perhaps the other way around).
However, social media and perhaps trans celebrities had increased the visibility of transgenderism and the numbers presenting at the clinics shot up.
At around this time she attended a conference where she was apparently berated by Joanna Olson-Kennedy who argued that the protocol she was using, itself a slimmed down version of the Dutch Protocol was "gate-keeping". She was also the one who started to use the threat of "Do you want a dead son or a living daughter" (or perhaps the other way around).