Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

I don't think there's any profit in this "is it innate" line of argument.
I tend to agree, mainly because it's never actually an argument.

The way CY is raising the point, it's effectively just JAQ. It doesn't go anywhere. It doesn't lead to anything. It has no demonstrable relevance to anything we're actually debating.

The other way it gets raised is in similarly irrelevant and distracting, hand-wavy antics. Nobody's actually trying to make an argument from any alleged (not even established!) innateness of trans identity. They're just hoping you'll be intimidated by the concept, into conceding that maybe trans women are women after all.
 
In a way it comes back to this concept of "true trans" that keeps being brought up. It's generally raised in the context of, well, there are some men who pretend to be women who should be allowed into women's spaces, because reasons. However, it's impossible to explain what is actually meant by that. No man has the brain (or the mind or the soul) of a woman. It's a ridiculous concept.

Sometimes all that is meant is that the insincere man has adopted a trans identity for purely utilitarian purposes, such as to have a cushier life in a women's jail, or maybe to be spared jail altogether on account of his delicate feelings, or to win something in an athletics competition. (I have great doubt that any - maybe beyond single figures - men do that.) Other men, in this scenario, have real feelings of some sort which make their trans identity "real", but these are not defined. Sometimes it seems to mean that the men are not autogynaephiles. Are effeminate homosexual men (HSTS) "true" trans then? What is it about them that entitles them to that designation, and not the AGP cohort?

There is no roses-round-the-door reason for a man to want to be a woman or to pretend to be a woman. It's sexual fetish all the way down, with the exception of a few unfortunates with unrelated serious mental illness who come to believe that transitioning is what they need when they get sucked into the trans cult.

When my friend Ashley came out to me as trans, I didn't understand anything. What he said was "I think I'm really a woman." This made no sense to me. He wasn't a woman. You only had to look at him. He was a man, with all his bits in working order (at least according to his bidie-in Anne, who was also a part of our friendship group). There was no possible, rational way he could "really" be a woman. I just went along with it, utterly bemused. I remember saying to a friend, this is beyond weird and I don't understand any of it, but what can you say except "welcome, sister"? I didn't judge Ashley, and most of the time it didn't matter anyway. But looking back at his behaviour, which was sexualised from the get-go, AGP is the explanation that makes sense.

It's only the Blanchard typography that makes any sense of any of this. But the trans cult are absolutely desperate that this should not be accepted, because they know very well that this understanding puts an end to the rationale they keep putting forward for men to be legally allowed in women's spaces. Look at the reaction last time I brought Blanchard up. (He's a jerk, by the way, but that doesn't prevent his being right.) A sudden riccochet into ravings about oscillating saws or something like that. It's got to the point where nobody can research anything or write anything or conclude anything about AGP for fear of the full force of trans cancellation descending. (Same thing with ROGD too - can't possibly acknowledge that this is a thing, all these confused friendship groups of adolescent girls who would have been starving themselves a generation ago are really truly for realsies actually men.)

Let trans-identifying men into women's single-sex spaces because they get off on it. Or because they get off on pretending to be women in the context of their homosexual relationship. Not a very strong position, is it? So it has to be the poor oppressed flower, the most marginalised group in society (middle-aged white heterosexual men, right!), who will be really sad, or even kill himself, if he doesn't get to pee in the Ladies'. Just knock it off, why don't you?
 
Oh for crying out loud. I was just reading something about "disinhibition/immunity to stress" in trans-identifying men who display exhibitionist behaviour and often film themselves performing unacceptable behaviours, often in women-only spaces, and now this appears.


Apparently the police were in attendance but took no action, because it isn't illegal for men to be naked to the waist, even if they do have pronounced gynaecomastia from taking too much oestrogen.

Another one that won't render. Maybe for the best.
 
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I had not seen this picture before. Trans-identifying men don't have any athletic advantage, right.

1749331800652.jpeg

No prizes for being able to identify Wil[lia]m Thomas in that lineup.
 
Sometimes all that is meant is that the insincere man has adopted a trans identity for purely utilitarian purposes, such as to have a cushier life in a women's jail, or maybe to be spared jail altogether on account of his delicate feelings, or to win something in an athletics competition. (I have great doubt that any - maybe beyond single figures - men do that.)
Other men, in this scenario, have real feelings of some sort which make their trans identity "real", but these are not defined. Sometimes it seems to mean that the men are not autogynaephiles. Are effeminate homosexual men (HSTS) "true" trans then? What is it about them that entitles them to that designation, and not the AGP cohort?
There is no roses-round-the-door reason for a man to want to be a woman or to pretend to be a woman. It's sexual fetish all the way down, with the exception of a few unfortunates with unrelated serious mental illness who come to believe that transitioning is what they need when they get sucked into the trans cult.

When my friend Ashley came out to me as trans, I didn't understand anything. What he said was "I think I'm really a woman." This made no sense to me. He wasn't a woman. You only had to look at him. He was a man, with all his bits in working order (at least according to his bidie-in Anne, who was also a part of our friendship group). There was no possible, rational way he could "really" be a woman. I just went along with it, utterly bemused. I remember saying to a friend, this is beyond weird and I don't understand any of it, but what can you say except "welcome, sister"? I didn't judge Ashley, and most of the time it didn't matter anyway. But looking back at his behaviour, which was sexualised from the get-go
, AGP is the explanation that makes sense.
It's only the Blanchard typography that makes any sense of any of this. But the trans cult are absolutely desperate that this should not be accepted, because they know very well that this understanding puts an end to the rationale they keep putting forward for men to be legally allowed in women's spaces. Look at the reaction last time I brought Blanchard up. (He's a jerk, by the way, but that doesn't prevent his being right.) A sudden riccochet into ravings about oscillating saws or something like that. It's got to the point where nobody can research anything or write anything or conclude anything about AGP for fear of the full force of trans cancellation descending. (Same thing with ROGD too - can't possibly acknowledge that this is a thing, all these confused friendship groups of adolescent girls who would have been starving themselves a generation ago are really truly for realsies actually men.)

Let trans-identifying men into women's single-sex spaces because they get off on it. Or because they get off on pretending to be women in the context of their homosexual relationship. Not a very strong position, is it? So it has to be the poor oppressed flower, the most marginalised group in society (middle-aged white heterosexual men, right!), who will be really sad, or even kill himself, if he doesn't get to pee in the Ladies'. Just knock it off, why don't you?
Right. How about I agree with everything you said.

Now, would it make more or less sense to recognize something as autogynophilia and just accept that some men enjoy wearing women's clothes. We cannot define women's clothes any less accurately than we can define gender - maybe we know it when we see it, but that is unenforcable as a method of who goes into what toilet or who competes in what sex-segregated sport.

Maybe if we just accepted AGP as something some men have we could then not worry about such men using the men's toilets or wearing their hair long and having extensive nail art when running the 100 metres hurdles.

Wouldn't that be preferable to your demand that AGP be stigmatized and thrust back in the closet ("where it belongs")?

Perhaps if it wasn't stigmatized, the trans-rights demands would never have got off the ground.

The pity is, to me it seemed Eddie Izzard was once at the forefront of that, and yet has now adopted the idea that he is transgender as opposed to transvestite. To me, that is the fork in the road where the choice made by society was a mistake.
 
I tend to agree, mainly because it's never actually an argument.

The way CY is raising the point, it's effectively just JAQ.

No, it was a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ JOKE. You people are just weird.
It doesn't go anywhere. It doesn't lead to anything. It has no demonstrable relevance to anything we're actually debating.

Actually, it does. Trans behaviour is a trend, a fashion, in most cases. There's no scientific, biological or physiological basis to it at all, which was the non-joke part of my point. This is in sharp contrast with homosexuality, which has that basis. For trans people to claim that their transy feelings are somehow akin to homosexuality (in terms of biology) is nonsense.
The other way it gets raised is in similarly irrelevant and distracting, hand-wavy antics. Nobody's actually trying to make an argument from any alleged (not even established!) innateness of trans identity. They're just hoping you'll be intimidated by the concept, into conceding that maybe trans women are women after all.

As you can see from my comments above, and from any of the posts I've made about this subject (which you obviously either haven't read or are pretending not to have read), I am not arguing that transwomen are women. The exact opposite, in fact. I think that you, and possibly rolfe, are wilfully misunderstanding me, just so you can get angry about something. Up to you, of course, but you're way off target.
 
Cosmic Yak, I don't think I have addressed your posts at all.

Good news, the Darlington nurses have won. Wes Streeting has told the health board to obey the law.


The Fife case is still ongoing though.
 
No, it was a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ JOKE. You people are just weird.
No, you can't pull that one when you also said...
I'm only partly joking.
Then comes the non-joke part that was being addressed...
Actually, it does. Trans behaviour is a trend, a fashion, in most cases. There's no scientific, biological or physiological basis to it at all, which was the non-joke part of my point. This is in sharp contrast with homosexuality, which has that basis. For trans people to claim that their transy feelings are somehow akin to homosexuality (in terms of biology) is nonsense.
But it is a pointless diversion.

What does it matter if there are transgender animals or not?

Do animals write? If they don't does it mean there is no scientific basis for writing? Do other animals use complex language? No, but does that mean there is no scientific, biological or physiological basis for it?

Do they ride bicycles? Do they play team sports?

No. So what???!?
 
Right. How about I agree with everything you said.

Now, would it make more or less sense to recognize something as autogynophilia and just accept that some men enjoy wearing women's clothes. We cannot define women's clothes any less accurately than we can define gender - maybe we know it when we see it, but that is unenforcable as a method of who goes into what toilet or who competes in what sex-segregated sport.

Maybe if we just accepted AGP as something some men have we could then not worry about such men using the men's toilets or wearing their hair long and having extensive nail art when running the 100 metres hurdles.

Wouldn't that be preferable to your demand that AGP be stigmatized and thrust back in the closet ("where it belongs")?

Perhaps if it wasn't stigmatized, the trans-rights demands would never have got off the ground.

The pity is, to me it seemed Eddie Izzard was once at the forefront of that, and yet has now adopted the idea that he is transgender as opposed to transvestite. To me, that is the fork in the road where the choice made by society was a mistake.

That's a different debate, and perhaps one that might reasonably be had.

Do you think it's appropriate for men to go about in public wearing their fetish gear? Do you think it's appropriate for men to wear their fetish gear to work? What about if they work with children? Because that's what this is.

There may be particular situations where it's acceptable, certainly. Maybe working in a sex shop. But as a physics teacher?
 
Good news, the Darlington nurses have won. Wes Streeting has told the health board to obey the law.


Now, with their case heading to the courts, Health Secretary Wes Streeting has intervened, ordering Darlington Memorial Hospital to give the women their own room.

I am a little suspicious of this from Streeting. I do wonder if he's trying to avoid a precedent-setting ruling from the courts?

The Fife case is still ongoing though.
..and it makes me wonder why he hasn't intervened in this one as well.
 
Streeting can't intervene in the Fife case because health is devolved. Whether or not he has set a legal precedent with the Darlington case, he has pushed things in the right direction.
 
That's a different debate, and perhaps one that might reasonably be had.

Do you think it's appropriate for men to go about in public wearing their fetish gear? Do you think it's appropriate for men to wear their fetish gear to work? What about if they work with children? Because that's what this is.

There may be particular situations where it's acceptable, certainly. Maybe working in a sex shop. But as a physics teacher?
I don't have a definitive answer to that.

But maybe I would think of it similarly to how most companies operate. Some companies will permit more or less sexualized clothing, and most people try not to overdo it at work. There are always going to be some people who push things too far, etc...

Would it be wrong for Eddie Izzard to wear lipstick to an office job? Is that indulging in a fetish? Is it wrong for JD Vance to wear eyeliner? Is that indulging a fetish?

I don't think there is going to be a hard and fast answer when it comes to how to treat AGP, but I very much doubt that riling up the torches and pitch-forks mob is the civilized answer.
 
No, you can't pull that one when you also said...

Then comes the non-joke part that was being addressed...

But it is a pointless diversion.

What does it matter if there are transgender animals or not?

Do animals write? If they don't does it mean there is no scientific basis for writing? Do other animals use complex language? No, but does that mean there is no scientific, biological or physiological basis for it?

Do they ride bicycles? Do they play team sports?

No. So what???!?
I will resume my place at the bottom of the pecking order. My apologies for my presumption in venturing my own comment. Thank you for setting me straight.
 
I had not seen this picture before. Trans-identifying men don't have any athletic advantage, right.

View attachment 61699

No prizes for being able to identify Wil[lia]m Thomas in that lineup.
Two of them look like they've learnt 'less time in water equals faster'. Those 3 in the background need to go back to school as the angle they're hitting the water is a mess. I presume the one that's jumped further and hasn't the water yet is the trans person? Maybe they have just learnt more about angles? Maybe that's a bit misogynistic.
 
No, it was a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ JOKE. You people are just weird.


Actually, it does. Trans behaviour is a trend, a fashion, in most cases. There's no scientific, biological or physiological basis to it at all, which was the non-joke part of my point.
There's very much a sociology basis though I think,
This is in sharp contrast with homosexuality, which has that basis. For trans people to claim that their transy feelings are somehow akin to homosexuality (in terms of biology) is nonsense.
I agree
As you can see from my comments above, and from any of the posts I've made about this subject (which you obviously either haven't read or are pretending not to have read), I am not arguing that transwomen are women. The exact opposite, in fact. I think that you, and possibly rolfe, are wilfully misunderstanding me, just so you can get angry about something. Up to you, of course, but you're way off target.
 
Two of them look like they've learnt 'less time in water equals faster'. Those 3 in the background need to go back to school as the angle they're hitting the water is a mess. I presume the one that's jumped further and hasn't the water yet is the trans person? Maybe they have just learnt more about angles? Maybe that's a bit misogynistic.
It's extremely misogynistic. Your hypothesis is that these women are almost all too stupid to swim good in collegiate competition.

The phallic nail in the vaginal coffin of your misogynistic hypothesis is that the only swimmer who can swim good according to your hypothesis is in fact the one male in the race.

A less misogynistic hypothesis would be that what you see in this image is the natural physical advantage of males, even over female athletes of comparable experience, training, and drive. Maybe you think that's a bit transphobic.
 
I don't have a definitive answer to that.

But maybe I would think of it similarly to how most companies operate. Some companies will permit more or less sexualized clothing, and most people try not to overdo it at work. There are always going to be some people who push things too far, etc...

Would it be wrong for Eddie Izzard to wear lipstick to an office job? Is that indulging in a fetish? Is it wrong for JD Vance to wear eyeliner? Is that indulging a fetish?

I don't think there is going to be a hard and fast answer when it comes to how to treat AGP, but I very much doubt that riling up the torches and pitch-forks mob is the civilized answer.

Hyperbole doesn't really help reasoned debate.

At the moment we are in a situation where the Holy Trans are indulged to the point where even the woodwork teacher who wore the enormous plastic knockers to work was indulged. He couldn't be censured because it was his "gender expression" and that had been declared to be legally sacrosanct. At a less extreme level, "Debbie" Hayton absolutely admits he's AGP and yet attends his work as a physics teacher in women's clothes. This is "stunning and brave".

I'm not suggesting getting out torches and pitchforks and never have. I am suggesting that society in general would do well to realise that this is fetish gear, and there are situations (rather a lot of situations) where it is not appropriate to wear fetish gear in public. I think employers should be free to set boundaries as they think appropriate for their business and not be compelled to put up with any of this malarkey if they don't want to. I think that citizens who don't want to see men out in public in fetish gear should not be compelled to pretend that it's all fine and dandy.

To have normalised the wearing of fetish gear in public, and the performing of a sexual fetish in public, compelling others to participate in the fetish whether they like it or not, indeed to have elevated this to a human right, is the great triumph of the trans cult. Time it was recognised for what it is.
 

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