Does the Shroud of Turin Show Expected Elongation of the Head in 2D?"

The contamination is not magic,
Why can't it be detected them?
It's due to repairs, reweaves, or mending.
Except there is no patching in the sampled area......
You can continue to ignore the science if you wish, not my monkey.
What "science" is that? All you've produced is assertions and nonsense.
Where did I flounce? You are imagining things.
Right....... :rolleyes:
And no, you have not patiently explained anything to me.
Yes I have, as have others. You don't want to listen to those of us with vastly greater knowledge and skills.
As reported in the Damon paper, the chi^2 fails, deal with it, do not ignore it.
Except there is no chi-squared issue. Magical thinking doesn't impress me.
 
The image is composed of discoloration of the surface of the linen fibers to a depth of 400 nanometers.

file:///C:/Users/bobdr/Downloads/JIST_2010_art00001_G_-Fanti.pdf

Fanti again, but look at the pictures, they tell a thousand stories.
When are you going to allow access to this so we can look at the pictures?
 
I have already posted evidence for those three things, you rejected that evidence.
Absolute bollocks.

1. I tore your inane repetition of the nonsense claims of Marinelli, Case and Heller apart. Your response (post 1651) was to be dismissively abusive and then flee this forum. I added further details in post 1662. You have refused to address these facts.

To repeat: the story is an easily disproved lie The alleged sample was far, far, too small, the alleged AMS facility disn't exist at the time of the alleged test.

@bobdroege7, you are lying.


2. You posted no examples of a herringbone weave cloth from the first century. You are lying about this.


3. Your assertions regarding a room temperature Maillard reaction being able to create an image similar to that on the Lirey cloth are supported by no evidence.
 
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Except there is no evidence of magical contamination or invisible re-weaving, there was threads of cotton, silk, and satin, and there was only one textile expert.

Fellow shroudies and their idiotic beliefs.

You can ◊◊◊◊ off.
Is there supposed to be a meaning buried in this?
 
You keep bringing up stuff that has already been covered many times in this thread by others.
So do you.

Yes, yes.
So you're saying that Brown was not a respected and accomplished physicist?!
Edited by Agatha: 
Edited to remove breach of rule 12


Brown worked at the Georgia Tech Research Institute from 1950 to 1995. He pioneered research techniques in electron microscopy and devised a new method of observing atomic lattice planes. He presented a paper on this topic at England's Cambridge University in 1967. Brown was active in scientific organizations concerned with microscopy, metallurgy, and other areas of physics. He was a fellow of the Royal Microscopical Society and a member of the Electron Microscopy Society of America. He was also a chairman of the Southeastern Electron Microscope Society. After he retired, he became a sought-after forensic consultant in material failure analysis.

You guys keep ridiculously pretending that anyone who believes the Shroud is authentic must be some kind of backward, uneducated person, and that no one can truly be a scientist if they do not reject the Shroud's authenticity, no matter how many degrees they have, no matter how many of their articles have been published in peer-reviewed scientific journals, no matter what awards and recognitions they've received, no matter what positions they've held at reputable universities, etc., etc.

The fact of the matter is that most of the scientists who've studied the Shroud believe it is authentic or at least reject the idea that it was produced in the Middle Ages. Your response to this inconvenient fact is to argue that no real scientist can disagree with you.

You told us Ray Downing was a "computer scientist," but he's actually an artist.
Nope. Here's what I told you, and everything I said is correct:

You mean are we done with your nonsense about the VP-8 analysis? I've cited scientists who used the VP-8, in addition to scientists who used even more sophisticated methods to test the Shroud for 3D information. You've cited no scientists who explain the Jackson-Jump VP-8 analysis, provided no sources, and merely offered your own arguments, nor have you addressed the findings of the research team headed by Ray Downing.

The Jackson-Jump VP-8 analysis was confirmed by a six-year project involving a team of graphics experts, computer scientists, and other experts led by Downing, and their findings are presented in the documentary The Real Face of Jesus? They do a great job of explaining how we know the Shroud contains 3D information. In the process, they discuss the Jackson-Jump VP-8 analysis at length. Their analysis was more sophisticated and detailed than the Jackson-Jump analysis, and their analysis confirmed Jackson and Jump's findings.


At least one of the members of Downing's team was a computer scientist. And Downing is a graphics artist, a 3D illustrator, and an animator, not just an artist. Downing has produced graphics for the scientific, medical, pharmaceutical, and broadcast industries, so he knows a thing or two about how images are created and what data they can contain. You still haven't cited a single scholar to answer the Jackson-Jump VP-8 analysis, and your so-called "review" of the Downing team's research simply ignored most of the evidence they presented.

You told us David Rolfe was an atheist who was converted, but he's been a lifelong shroud enthusiast.
According to two major British newspapers, Rolfe used to be an atheist and Rolfe came to believe in the Shroud after he tried to disprove it.




Your fetish for embellished qualifications is growing thin.
So is your penchant for misrepresentation and pseudoscience.

Is David Ford a professor at the University of Maryland, as you claimed?
"Is" he a professor there, as in right now? I don't think so. His article that I cited was written in the year 2000, 25 years ago. I know he graduated from the University of Maryland with a master's degree in history and philosophy. I know he was listed with a UOM email address and was vice president of the UOM chess club. I know his article has been favorably cited by several scientists and scholars. I know he consulted with Dr. Alan Adler, a respected biochemist who specialized in blood porphyrins and blood chemistry, while writing the article.

So, even assuming I erred in assuming Ford was a faculty member at the university, are you guys ever going to get around to specifically responding to the facts Ford presents in his article? Here's the link to it again, for your convenience: https://shroud.com/pdfs/ford1.pdf.

Finally, here is an annotated bibliography by Shroud expert Joseph Marino that addresses the claim that the Shroud is a medieval production:

The Feasibility of a Medieval Artisan Having Produced the Shroud of Turin -- an Annotated English-Language Bibliography

 
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So you're saying that Brown was not...
Don't put words in other people's mouths.

You guys keep ridiculously pretending that anyone who believes the Shroud is authentic must be some kind of backward, uneducated person...
Not any claim I made. On the contrary, you keep embellishing the credentials of people you want us to accept as authorities.

The fact of the matter is that most of the scientists who've studied the Shroud believe it is authentic or at least reject the idea that it was produced in the Middle Ages.
Red herring. Secular science simply isn't interested the shroud.

Your response to this inconvenient fact is to argue that no real scientist can disagree with you.
Not any claim I made.

At least one of the members of Downing's team was a computer scientist.
Which one? Where does he appear in The Real Face of Jesus to present the perspective of a computer scientist on the question of whether the shroud actually does contain 3D data?

And Downing is a graphics artist, a 3D illustrator, and an animator, not just an artist.
All that falls under the ambit of artist. I have no problem with that. But he is not a scientist and is work on the shroud does not test its claims scientifically.

Downing has produced graphics for the scientific, medical, pharmaceutical, and broadcast industries, so he knows a thing or two about how images are created and what data they can contain.
He is not a scientist. He was not trying to test the hypothesis that the shroud image contained 3D information. He proceeded from the assumption that it sort-of did, and speculatively filled in what was missing. His goal—as the program plainly stated—was to produce a 3D model, not test a hypothesis. He succeeded, according to the criteria the team set for themselves, which could be considered a testament to his talent as an artist. You claimed the program would "confirm" the VP-8 findings. It did not. It simply used them for an art project.

You still haven't cited a single scholar to answer the Jackson-Jump VP-8 analysis, and your so-called "review" of the Downing team's research simply ignored most of the evidence they presented.
The program was not an attempt at scientific hypothesis testing. You misrepresented it. I addressed the evidence that they presented. Too bad if it did not appear in the form you approve. If you are unable to understand the material presented by your sources or the discussion of it by others, that's not my problem.

According to two major British newspapers, Rolfe used to be an atheist...
Yes, Rolfe claims to have been an atheist and newspapers report his claim when interviewing him for his work. Where is the evidence he actually ever was? He's been making pro-Christianity films since his early 20s. What did you do to dispel the proposition that he is embellishing or fabricating his conversion claims in order to increase credibility in his work?

"Is" he a professor there, as in right now? I don't think so.
Then why did you claim he was? Were you simply careless or were you trying to dress him up a bit?

I know he graduated from the University of Maryland with a master's degree in history and philosophy. I know he was listed with a UOM email address and was vice president of the UOM chess club.
None of that makes him a professor.

I know his article has been favorably cited by several scientists and scholars. I know he consulted with Dr. Alan Adler, a respected biochemist who specialized in blood porphyrins and blood chemistry, while writing the article.
None of that makes him a professor.

So, even assuming I erred in assuming Ford was a faculty member at the university, are you guys ever going to get around to specifically responding to the facts Ford presents in his article?
You're telling us we should take the content of Ford's work at face value now, rather than on the authority you mistakenly tried to give him. If the quality of his work stands on its own regardless of what you or I think his credentials might be, then I require you to take my work as it stands without regard to what you think my credentials might be.
 
"Is" he a professor there, as in right now? I don't think so. His article that I cited was written in the year 2000, 25 years ago. I know he graduated from the University of Maryland with a master's degree in history and philosophy. I know he was listed with a UOM email address and was vice president of the UOM chess club.
It's a minor point, but I really wish you'd cut this out. You shouldn't give his affiliation as just "University of Maryland" unless it's with the main campus at College Park. His degree is from UMBC. He's a Retriever, not a Terrapin.

Note the correct abbreviation: UMBC. It's even in the email address you mentioned. Not "UOM", which isn't even the correct abbreviation for University of Maryland-College Park, which would be "UMD" .
 
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So do you.


So you're saying that Brown was not a respected and accomplished physicist?!
Irrelevant.
<Snippage of irrelevant nonsense>

The fact of the matter is that most of the scientists who've studied the Shroud believe it is authentic or at least reject the idea that it was produced in the Middle Ages.

Radiocarbon results 4 - now in colour! Resized 600x300.png

Nope. Here's what I told you, and everything I said is correct:
Utter lie.
According to two major British newspapers, Rolfe used to be an atheist and Rolfe came to believe in the Shroud after he tried to disprove it.
Actual evidence?
[
So what? All sort of nonsense gets published in magazines.

"Is" he a professor there, as in right now? I don't think so. His article that I cited was written in the year 2000, 25 years ago. I know he graduated from the University of Maryland with a master's degree in history and philosophy.
Actually Ford was an undergraduate when he wrote that piece..... And you omit his lacrosse career. Or his dabbling in creationism.
Some of us are evidently better at research than you are.

I know he was listed with a UOM email address and was vice president of the UOM chess club. I know his article has been favorably cited by several scientists and scholars. I know he consulted with Dr. Alan Adler, a respected biochemist who specialized in blood porphyrins and blood chemistry, while writing the article.
More repetition ofAdler's nonsense.

More debunked drivel.
 
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So you're saying that Brown was not a respected and accomplished physicist?! Let's just review Brown's qualifications, shall we?
I made no such claim, of course. But it seems prudent to clarify the dismissive "yes, yes." You pursue a tedious, somewhat disingenuous approach, which is what sometimes merits dismissal if only for its tedium. You present the work of people you purport to be eminent, and therefore that their work on the shroud—which you insinuate follows from their eminence in other fields—should be taken with equal rigor. And regardless of the nature of the response, you say you will only accept scholarly citations in response. But when presentation is rebutted either briefly or thoroughly, you gallop on to the next copypasted claim with little if any rejoinder.

The problems with your approach are legion. Expecting there to be a pat scholarly response to every purported scholarly claim you present is naive. If some scholar says, "It is thus!" the rebuttal need not be some equally eminent scholar saying, "No, it is not thus." That you offer links to their material ordinarily presumes that your reader is expected to digest its meaning and therefore that he is competent to do so. When you dismiss your readers' subsequent commentary with the proposition that he isn't qualified to offer it, you tip you hand. It's more likely you're simply hurling these presentations as opaque rhetorical projectiles, demanding that your critics respond only in kind under a presumption that what your critics hurl back must be equally opaque to you, and also to them.

Sometimes there are problems with what you claim about your sources. You've misrepresented enough of your sources—either their qualifications or content—to render you untrustworthy. Hence you don't have the right to expect them to be taken on their face. Sometimes there are problems with what the sources insinuate about themselves. Many are unquestionably qualified in something. Many are or were unquestionably qualified in a related field, but disclaim that their shroud research has anything to do with that. Indeed, much of it is self-published and therefore not subject to the ordinary controls in rigor that prevailed in their professional pursuits. Sometimes the material itself has some merit, but seems to carefully skirt any controversial argumentation in order to achieve marginal acceptance in the mainstream.

Your overall motto seems to be that very smart people believe the shroud is authentic and are willing to offer their smart-guy skills to prove it. But people believe all kinds of things for different reasons. I don't criticize that per se, but it's a bit deceptive when they say that their belief in a religious claim is based on or supported by their science. We look at the science, and we see how assumptive it is, how outside mainstream controls, and in some cases just how very poor it is, and we start to entertain the proposititon that their scientific pursuits are being informed by belief and not the other way around. If you want to argue that good science proves the shroud is real, you have to show good science and not just side-hustle work from people who once were, or who once aspired to be, good scientists.

The Gish-gallopy nature of your posts suggests you rely on trying to stay ahead of the discussion, always keeping your critics in some kind of defensive posture. This is not generally an intellectually honest approach. When it takes practically pulling teeth to get you to examine a claim in detail, it's appropriate to wonder why you're making these arguments. It apparently isn't to study the material as best we can and arrive at a reasoned conclusion. You seem to be more about performing than studying.

I'm not questioning Brown's qualifications. They're easily verified. But what does that have to do with the paper you pointed us to? It's a straightforward microscopic examination of material taken from the shroud, but not from the area sampled for radiocarbon dating. He shows a micrograph of one strand of cotton. But the paper neglects to provide or defend a hypothesis for how that supposedly affected the radiocarbon dating of a different part of the shroud that was controlled for such contamination. Brown's findings here are likely true, but unremarkable. We know the shroud is or may be contaminated with other kinds of textiles. Brown shows us electron microscopy cross sections of fibers that he says are coated with a pigment. He opines that it arose from someone attempting to dye new fabric to match old fabric. If that same material had been present in the radiocarbon sample, he could argue that it may have skewed the findings. But he presents no evidence that the material he observes was also in the part used for dating, nor how it would have survived the cleaning process if it had been.

It's a self-published paper, but here the lack of peer review or scholarly attention is moot. It's a straightforward presentation of mostly irrelevant observations with some unremarkable opinions and hypotheses presented. There is no need to challenge the microscopy or Brown's expertise in obtaining it. There is no need to address Brown's hypotheses because he doesn't attempt (and therefore probably didn't intend) to defend them with evidence. If you intended this as some kind of projectile, it turns out that if we look at it it's mostly a soap bubble.
 
It's your job to show he does, such that his judgment is properly informed.


No Gish gallop. You asked me to talk about Casabianca. If you want to withdraw your claims about him and focus elsewhere, that onus is on you.


You've shown no evidence that Casabianca or any of his co-authors is competent in the field to which they have applied their purportedly expert judgment.


It's not my problem that the correct criticism of your claim isn't what you expected. You are responsible for laying the foundation of people you proffer as experts.


If you believe you have been personally attacked, report the post for moderation. Otherwise do not claim as much for rhetorical effect.


Do not reverse the burden of proof. The paper's logic relies on accepting the judgment of the authors regarding the statistical outcome. You have the burden to explain why that judgment should be considered probative.
You can address the arguments made in Casabianca's paper or not, just adhoming him doesn't help.

He claims that the data lack homogeneity, because it fails the chi^2 test according to the method of Ward and Wilson. That's the same method as in the Damon paper, did you just read the Damon paper and learn what chi^2 method they used, it's the first time in the thread that Ward and Wilson have been mentioned.

The paper is the evidence, you can try and impeach the paper, and you have to do that before you impeach Casabianca et al, you have put the cart before the horse.

My claims are the same as in that paper.

I am not looking for help from the moderators, if you were a polite human being you would not use ad homs. You would address the argument not the arguer, that is one of the rules you agreed to when you joined the forum.

I have already shown why that judgement is probative.

The failure of the chi^2 test indicates a level of homogeneity too high for valid radiocarbon dating.
 
Why can't it be detected them?

Except there is no patching in the sampled area......

What "science" is that? All you've produced is assertions and nonsense.

Right....... :rolleyes:

Yes I have, as have others. You don't want to listen to those of us with vastly greater knowledge and skills.

Except there is no chi-squared issue. Magical thinking doesn't impress me.
Right, all three labs detected contamination, they were able to remove some but not all of it.

Three separate textile experts examined photos of the sampled area and noted that it was from a repair.
 
You can address the arguments made in Casabianca's paper or not, just adhoming him doesn't help.
I did. It wasn’t the kind of rebuttal you were prepared for, so apparently you don’t understand it.

it's the first time in the thread that Ward and Wilson have been mentioned.
Irrelevant. You confidently thought it was another test and tried to instruct people to that effect. This indicates you don’t understand the test or how it’s used in the field. Sure, Casabianca et al. propose to tell you, but they’re not experts in the field either.

I am not looking for help from the moderators, if you were a polite human being you would not use ad homs.
It is not ad hominem to reject unfounded claims to expertise. If you believe otherwise, report the post.

I have already shown why that judgement is probative.
No, you haven’t. You think the test itself is the proof. The logic of the paper tacitly asks the reader to trust the judgement of the authors in interpreting the results in context.
 
I did. It wasn’t the kind of rebuttal you were prepared for, so apparently you don’t understand it.


Irrelevant. You confidently thought it was another test and tried to instruct people to that effect. This indicates you don’t understand the test or how it’s used in the field. Sure, Casabianca et al. propose to tell you, but they’re not experts in the field either.


It is not ad hominem to reject unfounded claims to expertise. If you believe otherwise, report the post.


No, you haven’t. You think the test itself is the proof. The logic of the paper tacitly asks the reader to trust the judgement of the authors in interpreting the results in context.
Not so fast, how did you rebut it again, maybe you didn't or maybe I did not understand it.

No, I did not think it was another test, I have always referred to the chi^2 test as performed in the Damon paper, no other chi^2 test.

I don't think the test is proof, you know what proofs are for I assume. It is evidence, you should know the difference.

You are gaslighting Casabianca et al, they do not ask anyone to trust their judgement, they cite others and provide data, such that one can test their claims.

Like this claim

"
They used the known locations of the tested samples in each laboratory and showed a significant decrease in the radiocarbon
age as one gets closer to the centre of the sheet (in length, from the tested corner). This variability
of the Nature radiocarbon dates in a few centimetres, if linearly extrapolated to the opposite side of
the TS, would lead to a dating in the future."
 
Not so fast, how did you rebut it again, maybe you didn't or maybe I did not understand it.
The problem is in the inexpert interpretation of the results of the test. You really want the problem to be somewhere else that’s easier for you to defend. That’s how pseudoscience works.

If you want to trust their judgment, that’s your privilege. I don’t, for the reasons given. And it doesn’t seem like anyone else except shroud authenticists sees a problem.

No, I did not think it was another test, I have always referred to the chi^2 test as performed in the Damon paper, no other chi^2 test.
The Wikipedia page you sent us to has absolutely nothing to do with the Ward and Wilson test. You didn’t know the difference, but you tried to play teacher and got it very wrong. I’m still not sure that you understand how different kinds of models—which can be radically different—can be predicated on the same distribution. That’s kind of a big deal in statistics.

I don't think the test is proof, you know what proofs are for I assume. It is evidence, you should know the difference.
Weasel words. You’re treating the paper as if a definitive answer just drops automatically out of the math and requires no expertise to put into contexts to answer questions like, “Does this mean the results can’t be trusted?”

You are gaslighting Casabianca et al, they do not ask anyone to trust their judgement, they cite others and provide data, such that one can test their claims.
Straw man. The logic of the paper requires you to accept their judgment regarding the results. That there are some objective elements to their argument does not preclude that.

Has Casabianca or any of the coauthors ever published anything in archaeology or radiocarbon dating for something other than the shroud? Do others in archaeology in general or radiocarbon dating in general recognize them as authorities? These are not ad hominem or otherwise improper questions.
 
If an Artist Created the Shroud of Turin: Some Specific Issues to Consider, by Joseph Marino. Marino dissects the problems with the theory that a medieval artist created the Shroud's image.

Marino has noticed the same thing I've noticed about Shroud skeptics:

I’m always struck at how many skeptics of the Shroud confidently assert, without much documentation, that the Shroud is a forgery. Of course, anyone can have an opinion, but in the case of the Shroud, a person’s opinion of the Shroud is more often just based on their particular worldview as opposed to the historical, scientific, or even theological basis.

Marino summarizes some of the evidence of the Shroud's authenticity:

X-ray, fluorescence and microchemistry on the fibrils preclude the possibility of paint being used as a method for creating the image. Ultra Violet and infrared evaluation confirm these studies. Computer image enhancement and analysis by a device known as a VP-8 image analyzer show that the image has unique, three-dimensional information encoded in it. Microchemical evaluation has indicated no evidence of any spices, oils, or any biochemicals known to be produced by the body in life or in death.

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Trimmed for rule 4, again. Do not post more than one or two paragraohs from external sources, and include a link.
 
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...I’m always struck at how many skeptics of the Shroud confidently assert, without much documentation, that the Shroud is a forgery. Of course, anyone can have an opinion, but in the case of the Shroud, a person’s opinion of the Shroud is more often just based on their particular worldview as opposed to the historical, scientific, or even theological basis.
Speaking as a layperson: you're right, but for the wrong reasons. People tend to be skeptical for the same reason that if you held up, say, a pointy piece of bone and claimed it was a unicorn horn, when scientists had analyzed it already and determined it was a walrus tusk. Most people don't even have a basic reason to accept the very premise of what it is purported to be, much less claiming the radiocarbon dating was wrong because they were all a bunch of bungling oafs that didn't know what they were doing
 

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