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Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 32

That is not true. Stefanoni illuminated the knife blade to a high level.


View attachment 61140

The firends of AK who made the Netflix film dishonestly doctored the slide of the knife and tried to falsely make out the finding was 'inconclusive'.

View attachment 61141

Here is Dr Patrizia Stafanoni's testimony under oath during the trial:


View attachment 61142

So, it was definitively identified as Mez' DNA.
No, it was definitively identified as Meredith's DNA profile in the e-gram. How that profile got there is what's in question.

That Stefanoni thinks some DNA can hide in a scratch on a knife is laughable. That would provide as much protection as hunkering down in a fox hole 1 inch deep. No DNA could have survived a cleaning that removed every trace of blood. It's impossible.

But that aside, you've still not addressed the list of issues I posted above, each of which invalidates the results or the claim that the knife was the murder weapon.

And you can add to that list the fact that of the 30 alleles in the profile, 22 were below the 50 RFU threshold, and one was missing entirely. Only 6 alleles were over 50, and only one of those was over 100, barely. This is far to faint a trace to consider reliable, and very typical of what would be expected of lab contamination. That's on top of all the other issues with the knife.

And then there's the issue with the negative control showing contamination as Numbers pointed out, but now I feel like I'm piling on.
 
No, it was definitively identified as Meredith's DNA profile in the e-gram. How that profile got there is what's in question.

That Stefanoni thinks some DNA can hide in a scratch on a knife is laughable. That would provide as much protection as hunkering down in a fox hole 1 inch deep. No DNA could have survived a cleaning that removed every trace of blood. It's impossible.

But that aside, you've still not addressed the list of issues I posted above, each of which invalidates the results or the claim that the knife was the murder weapon.

And you can add to that list the fact that of the 30 alleles in the profile, 22 were below the 50 RFU threshold, and one was missing entirely. Only 6 alleles were over 50, and only one of those was over 100, barely. This is far to faint a trace to consider reliable, and very typical of what would be expected of lab contamination. That's on top of all the other issues with the knife.

And then there's the issue with the negative control showing contamination as Numbers pointed out, but now I feel like I'm piling on.
Yes, all indications are that the alleged DNA of Kercher on the knife blade was the result of contamination, probably occurring in Stefanoni's lab - she had used a suction device to concentrate the sample from the knife blade, a potential mechanism for contamination.

Here's a document listing the many issues from Stefanoni's lab work and testimony that I prepared a little more than 10 years ago (7 May 2015) with some help from some persons highly knowledgeable in the area of DNA testing. It may be a useful summary.

In the summary I indicate that several of the issues were violations of the European Convention of Human Rights; this should be understood as my identification of violations that were likely to have been found by the ECHR if Knox and Sollecito had been finally convicted of the murder/rape of Kercher and Knox and/or Sollecito had lodged with the ECHR an application claiming those violations against Italy as part of that miscarriage of justice. Of course, Knox and Sollecito had been finally acquitted of the murder/rape charges by the Marasca CSC panel in 2015, so the ECHR would not have an opportunity to rule that the impugned actions constituted violations of the Convention.


The Seventeen-Plus Forensic Science Sins of Patrizia Stefanoni

There was a pattern of misconduct and malpractice by Patrizia Stefanoni and the Italian Scientific Police in their forensic investigation of the murder and rape of Meredith Kercher, and the trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, who were charged with those crimes.

The pattern of misconduct and malpractice included investigations in Patrizia Stefanoni's laboratory, the treatment of evidence, and her court testimony. She ignored and violated numerous essential technical standards for forensic science investigation, violated fundamental standards of ethical behavior, and produced invalid conclusions that contradicted logic and well-known scientific principles.

Stefanoni's misconduct and malpractice resulted in violations of the European Convention of Human Rights, Article 6, right to a fair trial, by Italy, including but not necessarily limited to, the failure to provide adequate time and facilities for the preparation of the defense (Art. 6.3b) and the failure to provide equality of arms to the defense (Art. 6.1).

Here is a summary.

1. Stefanoni failed - indeed, refused repeated requests - to turn over a copy of the best evidence of the DNA profiling investigation, the raw data, called electronic data files (EDFs), to the defense;

2. She suppressed numerous results, including potential exculpatory findings; these include blood stains from the downstairs flat, the full results of the rape kit, and results of tests on the putative semen stain on the pillow;

3. She destroyed evidence, in particular the bra clasp, preventing any DNA profile retest;

4. She entered false reports of data into her reports (RTIGF #1 & #2);

5. She committed perjury, for example, regarding the amount of DNA in the knife blade sample and that RT-PCR was used to quantify that DNA;

6. She delayed providing the minimal DNA data that was given to the defense until late in the trial;

7. She did not reveal in a timely manner to the defense and the court that TMB tests were done and precluded the presence of blood in the luminol footprint hits attributed to Amanda Knox;

8. She and her forensic police team mishandled specimen collection, in particular by swabbing large areas, failing to change gloves, failing to use DNA-free forceps for holding specimens, and by handling DNA specimens with dirty gloves;

9. She and her forensic police team mishandled chain-of-custody, specifically by repackaging the knife from Sollecito's kitchen in a police station without proper control against contamination;

10. She repeated tests that were conducted in secret (as deduced from irregularities in test sample numbering), to obtain false inculpatory results, for the kitchen knife and bra clasp;

11. She apparently manipulated positive control samples in the RT-PCR quantification to obtain high intercept levels probably in order to make unknown DNA samples appear more highly concentrated than they truly were;

12. She used the Qubit fluorometer to quantify DNA concentration in samples without having validated the equipment and procedure;

13. She arbitrarily used certain specimens registering "too low" for DNA concentration on the Qubit fluorometer for DNA profiling, and apparently not others, in a suspect-centered manner, violating good forensic practice. A reading of "too low" with the Qubit may mean there is actually no DNA present;

14. She attempted to conduct LCN DNA profiling in a method she had "invented" without validating the method;

15. She attempted to conduct LCN DNA profiling in a lab not adequately set up to prevent contamination, and thus inherently unsuited for LCN DNA profiling, which is highly sensitive to low concentrations of DNA;

16. She stated in court testimony that she had never been told of a contamination incident in her lab, however, the data she gave to the defense shows several incidents of contamination;

17. She did not supply records of methodology and quality control (such as rate of contamination and corrective measures) nor provide profiles of blank and positive control specimens to the defense, such records and control profiles are ordinarily and necessarily part of a report from a forensic DNA profiling lab;

18. She did not call out all the DNA alleles and profiles detectable on the bra clasp, instead only identifying the victim and one of the suspects (Sollecito), while DNA from several other males was detectable (indicating that the bra clasp had been contaminated).

19. She presented conclusions from the DNA data contrary to reasonable forensic science practice because of the absence of replication and the presence of contamination.
 
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Vixen, why would you mention my name, even after a "perhaps" as having "asked" about "Sollecito's aunt being slapped with a Calunnia charge".

You and any reader may be reassured that I never, ever posted any question about "Sollecito's aunt" in any way, shape, or form. In fact, I have no knowledge of whether or not Sollecito has an aunt.

Secondly, I join junkshop in questioning why the yellow-background alleged Guardian article by Tom Kington is dated 21 June 2008 on the bottom line while the top line refers to an event "Way back in 2012". Why are there two different sized fonts in the alleged article, and why is there a period after the 4th letter of the word "Sollecito's" so that it appears as "Soll.cito's"? And why, in your post #4190, do you claim to have written it, while making it appear to be some cut and paste of newspaper articles? And then in your post #4192, you provide a citation and quotes from a different article dated 22 June 2008 attributed to Kington, but with information not matching your previous post #4190? Is this a rather crude hoax or an example of disorganized thinking and researching?


It was one of my slides. Typo crept in.



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Stefanoni's goal, not as uncommon among police forensic technicians as one would hope, to find the link no matter what is pretty hard to distinguish from "framing".

Also, Stefanoni refused to turn over records of all the DNA controls - negative and positive - although 3 controls (1 negative, 2 positive) whose results she provided showed signs of contamination (the negative control had DNA in it, but should have none; the positive controls had more DNA in them than their nominal preset amounts). Furthermore, Stefanoni refused to turn over true copies of her DNA digital testing records to the defense or the court-appointed DNA experts (C&V) - a refusal that is on the same level of arousing suspicion of hiding misconduct as the failure of the police to document the interrogation of 5 - 6 November 2007.

IIRC, the knife was DNA tested by Stefanoni before Knox and Sollecito had lawyers, so no defense observers were present during that testing. That is, CPP Article 360 could not be fulfilled during that DNA testing.


It was confirmed that Stefanoni DID lodge all of her data with the court. The issue here is the US contingent of PIP DEMANDING to see the files but they had no right to access this except by making an application to the court which would FAIL as they are not party to the proceedings.



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What a load of rubbish. It's yet another example of your habitual accusations that you cannot support with any evidence including the accusation that Gill was 'bent'. It's another example of the years-long attempt to discredit any expert whose professional opinion does not support the guilt narrative. That includes Peter Gill, one of the most respected geneticists in the world.


You have never presented evidence that British expert Gill was paid anything by the defense. Another unsupported by evidence claim by you.

However, do you not understand that expert witnesses do not work for free? The prosecution has the advantage of the state paying for their expert witnesses while the defense has to pay for their experts themselves. Boemia and Rinaldi were paid by the state (which you previously denied but I cited the hiring notice...which you never acknowledged).
Gill had access to Stefanoni's analysis as well as C&V's analysis.


Chieffi did no such thing. He stated that Vecchiotti should have tested one sample on the knife that she believed too small to use. Their work was not found to be improper or impermissible.



:lolsign: Only YOU would call Peter Gill, PhD, Professor Emeritus of Forensic Genetics, Forensic Genetics Research Group, Oslo University Hospital, Norway a "tinpot FOAK scientist"! Even a UK tabloid describes Gill as "One of the world’s leading DNA experts."

Explain why there was no blood on the knife. How did it get so clean that not a trace of blood was left?


From Follain:

You wrote: As for the false claim of 'too low' that again is a meaningless notation an uneducated ignorant person spotted in some notes and decided to try to put it forward as proof the test was null and void."

Tagliabracci is NOT an "uneducated ignorant person." He's a professor of forensic medicine. Let me guess: he's also
'bent'.


Tagliabracci presented his testimony that the prosecution was 'suspect-centric' but this claim was rejected by the court. He tried to reintroduce this claim at the Nencini trial but again Nenicni came down on the side of Torrecelli. This is how a criminal trial works..

Your stance would be like someone chuntering on about 'the glove don't fit!' re OJ Simpson.



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Stefanoni's goal, not as uncommon among police forensic technicians as one would hope, to find the link no matter what is pretty hard to distinguish from "framing".

Also, Stefanoni refused to turn over records of all the DNA controls - negative and positive - although 3 controls (1 negative, 2 positive) whose results she provided showed signs of contamination (the negative control had DNA in it, but should have none; the positive controls had more DNA in them than their nominal preset amounts). Furthermore, Stefanoni refused to turn over true copies of her DNA digital testing records to the defense or the court-appointed DNA experts (C&V) - a refusal that is on the same level of arousing suspicion of hiding misconduct as the failure of the police to document the interrogation of 5 - 6 November 2007.

IIRC, the knife was DNA tested by Stefanoni before Knox and Sollecito had lawyers, so no defense observers were present during that testing.That is, CPP Article 360 could not be fulfilled during that DNA testing.


This is not correct. Sollecito had Victor Patumi as his expert witness to the knife testing.




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Exactly, and yet with all that blood spraying everywhere, and where Guede couldn't help but get soaked in blood, leave a bloody palm print, bloody shoe prints and plenty of DNA in many places, no trace of Amanda or Raffaele could be found, nor was there anything found on any of their clothes. Go figure.

I'm glad you finally realized this. Perhaps you're finally on your way to understanding the case.
:wackylaugh: Oh yeah, I forgot, Knox was wearing that incredibly pristine white skirt next morning. No sign of any blood there, M'Lud! :wackylaugh:

1748168120357.png


Sollecito to Knox: "Try to look straight ahead. Try not to look guilty."


:wackylaugh:
 
No, it was definitively identified as Meredith's DNA profile in the e-gram. How that profile got there is what's in question.

That Stefanoni thinks some DNA can hide in a scratch on a knife is laughable. That would provide as much protection as hunkering down in a fox hole 1 inch deep. No DNA could have survived a cleaning that removed every trace of blood. It's impossible.

But that aside, you've still not addressed the list of issues I posted above, each of which invalidates the results or the claim that the knife was the murder weapon.

And you can add to that list the fact that of the 30 alleles in the profile, 22 were below the 50 RFU threshold, and one was missing entirely. Only 6 alleles were over 50, and only one of those was over 100, barely. This is far to faint a trace to consider reliable, and very typical of what would be expected of lab contamination. That's on top of all the other issues with the knife.

And then there's the issue with the negative control showing contamination as Numbers pointed out, but now I feel like I'm piling on.


It is indisputabe the DNA found on the knife blade was of Mez. RS had an expert witness there, Patumi. Knox did not bother but she WAS worried about the knife, as expressed to her parents at an earlier stage. RS quickly explained the DNA of Mez on HIS kitchen knife as being an occasion when he accidentally pricked her hand, which of course, never happened. Plus RS refused to take the witness box.


1748169224675.png
Source: Kermit / Raper presentation

1748169298690.png

ibid

And the source most definitely is Mez' DNA as the computer produced printout shows beyond a shadow of a doubt.

1748169396409.png

ibid


In addition, this was just ONE piece of evidence out of a whole range of evidence that built up the big picture. The judges and jury deliberate on a verdict only when they have seen ALL of the evidence from ALL of the parties, and not before then.



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It was confirmed that Stefanoni DID lodge all of her data with the court. The issue here is the US contingent of PIP DEMANDING to see the files but they had no right to access this except by making an application to the court which would FAIL as they are not party to the proceedings.
False. The Hellmann Court of Appeal requested the raw data more than once but never received it.
 
It is indisputabe the DNA found on the knife blade was of Mez. RS had an expert witness there, Patumi. Knox did not bother but she WAS worried about the knife, as expressed to her parents at an earlier stage. RS quickly explained the DNA of Mez on HIS kitchen knife as being an occasion when he accidentally pricked her hand, which of course, never happened. Plus RS refused to take the witness box.


View attachment 61186
Source: Kermit / Raper presentation

View attachment 61187

ibid

And the source most definitely is Mez' DNA as the computer produced printout shows beyond a shadow of a doubt.

View attachment 61188

ibid


In addition, this was just ONE piece of evidence out of a whole range of evidence that built up the big picture. The judges and jury deliberate on a verdict only when they have seen ALL of the evidence from ALL of the parties, and not before then.
The low levels of DNA on the knife specimen - compare the difference in scales on the left axis of each electropherogram on the right-side page (the reference DNA sample) to that on the left-side page (knife blade sample) - shows that the knife specimen had extremely low levels of DNA, consistent with contamination. The levels of DNA on the right-side page, as shown by the RFU levels detected (the left axis scale) are often below the 50 RFU standard required to call out a peak according to accepted DNA profiling methodology. The right-side top electropherogram is missing the 33.2 peak present on the left-side (reference) top electropherogram. On the right-side electropherogram 3rd from the top (2nd from the bottom) on the far left, there are two additional peaks at the far left that are not present in the reference (left-side) electropherogram.

ETA: Vixen, you state, referring to the DNA profile from the knife blade, at the bottom of your post: this was just ONE piece of evidence out of a whole range of evidence that built up the big picture.

However, this one piece of alleged evidence was the only forensic alleged evidence link claimed by the prosecution between Knox and the murder/rape of Kercher. If the DNA claimed to have been on the knife blade is contamination, even it is Kercher's DNA, then the alleged knife blade DNA evidence is only evidence of contamination and not credible evidence linking Knox and the murder/rape. So the whole murder/rape case against Knox disappears with that finding of contamination. All the other alleged evidence against Knox was not credible, including her own allegedly coerced statements implicating Lumumba.
 
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Whatever the date of testing was.

View attachment 61191

Source: Kemrit/ Raper presentation


NB: correction: it is Valter, not Viktor, as previously stated.
So you don't have a citation for the date of the DNA testing of the knife blade sample nor for when Sollecito's (or Knox's) DNA experts were appointed and had the opportunity to observe any DNA testing. That suggests your claim lacks validity.

Also, the claim in the "Kemrit/Raper presentation" that the observations or objections (or criticisms) by the observers must be reported at the time of the observation or cannot be considered in the court trial is absolutely false; there is no such provision in Italian law, CPP Article 360, or any other CPP article.
 
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IIRC Nencini confirmed she had lodged it with the court.
Please supply the exact citation including the Italian text from Nencini to support your claim. It's well known that Stefanoni had not provided the raw data to the Hellmann court although that court had requested it several times, at least once because C&V, the court-appointed experts, had requested the raw data.
 
The oldest case against Italy before the CoM is, according to the HUDOC EXEC database, LEDONNE v. Italy (no. 1), final judgment date 12/08/1999.* This was part of a group of 163 cases all involving a violation of the Convention right to a speedy trial (that is, one not of excessive length). All individual measures were enacted by Italy for the 163 cases, so 162 were declared finally resolved by the CoM. This last case remains to enable the CoM to continue to supervise the general measures to be enacted by Italy; that remains ongoing.

* https://hudoc.exec.coe.int/eng?i=004-28200
 
The low levels of DNA on the knife specimen - compare the difference in scales on the left axis of each electropherogram on the right-side page (the reference DNA sample) to that on the left-side page (knife blade sample) - shows that the knife specimen had extremely low levels of DNA, consistent with contamination. The levels of DNA on the right-side page, as shown by the RFU levels detected (the left axis scale) are often below the 50 RFU standard required to call out a peak according to accepted DNA profiling methodology. The right-side top electropherogram is missing the 33.2 peak present on the left-side (reference) top electropherogram. On the right-side electropherogram 3rd from the top (2nd from the bottom) on the far left, there are two additional peaks at the far left that are not present in the reference (left-side) electropherogram.

ETA: Vixen, you state, referring to the DNA profile from the knife blade, at the bottom of your post: this was just ONE piece of evidence out of a whole range of evidence that built up the big picture.

However, this one piece of alleged evidence was the only forensic alleged evidence link claimed by the prosecution between Knox and the murder/rape of Kercher. If the DNA claimed to have been on the knife blade is contamination, even it is Kercher's DNA, then the alleged knife blade DNA evidence is only evidence of contamination and not credible evidence linking Knox and the murder/rape. So the whole murder/rape case against Knox disappears with that finding of contamination. All the other alleged evidence against Knox was not credible, including her own allegedly coerced statements implicating Lumumba.

LCN is perfectly examinable, as the RIS in Rome demonstrated (Berti and Barni 2013, Nencini). If a result can be gleaned then it is successful.

Berti and Barni tested the LCN DNA sample 36-I and filed their report with Nencini, 30 Oct 2013.


The subject of the question, as formulated in the body of the assignment minutes of the assignment, recites the following:

"Examined the documents of the case and in particular the findings of the expert report submitted on 29 June 2011 by Prof.ssa Carla Vecchiotti and Prof. Stefano Conti, together with the statements formulated by the consultants of the parties Dr. Patrizia Stefanoni and Prof. Giuseppe Novelli in their papers filed at the hearing on September 6, 2011, and provided the analysis of the sample previously worked, the peritians say about the attribution of the track marked with the letter (I) found on the finding no. 36 and if DNA itself can be identified as referring to Meredith Kercher or the condemned Rudi Herman Guede.


In the event that the sample is not possible for failure to perform, poor conservation or any other cause, the pertinent experts will give the Court of Justice immediate notice by fax.”



The document is in the form of a laboratory report and is highly technical. The key finding is the following:


The comparison between the genetic profiles of the trace I and the genetic profiles of the comparison subjects and the subsequent biostatistic analysis allowed to find:


  • a high degree of compatibility. statistically supported. between the genetic profile of Amanda Marie Knox and the genetic tracers of the I track;
  • a high degree of incompatibility. statistically supported, among the genetic profiles of the remaining subjects (Meredith Susanna Cara Kercher, Rudy Hermann Guede, Raffaele Sollecito) and the genetic profiles of the trace I.

In plain English, the Sample 36-I is neither starch nor rye bread and is compatible with Amanda Knox. There is incompatibility with Meredith, Guede or Sollecito. It also demonstrates that the sample was not ‘too low copy number’.

In addition, Mignini in his closing statement to Massei (upheld) summed up as follows:


Ril ref. THE NOTO FINISH 36. Photo 4 Knife seized in the Sollecito house where genetic profile compatible with Amanda Knox and on the blade genetic profile compatible with Kercher Meredith was found on the handle. All the considerations on this knife are reported and on the fact that Meredith could not have had contacts under normal conditions with the terminal part of the blade of this knife. And the trace attributable to the accused Knox is significantly right on the terminal part of the handle, where the lateral enlargement of the handle begins and where, therefore, the thrust aimed at the penetration of the blade is exercised and the fingers of those who hold the knife are prevented to slip on the blade. Another detail of extraordinary importance.

And the imprint of the blade of this knife seems to have been preserved on the bed, to the left of point 0: see photo 0173 which corresponds to exhibit 124 in which the blood traces are of the victim.

It should be remembered that the characteristics of the knife in seizure are the following: “Overall length cm. 31.2, handle of the length of cm. 6.6 and blade, single-blade 17.5 cm long with width estimated at the proximal third equal to 3 cm and thickness of the “coast, equal to mm.1.5. Along the blade, on both sides, small knurlings were observed, in continuity with the tip and up to 2.2 cm. of 11.4 "distance (see. CT Bacci, Liviero, Marchionni). The imprint would have been left by the blade cm long. 17.5 and cm wide. 3.

<snip>

It is hardly necessary to add that there was no evidence to the contrary about the fact that the knife was in the availability of Sollecito and that it was used in the house of Via della Pergola 7, ie in that of Meredith. Also on this point, the decree of the First Section of the Supreme Court is now definitive and cannot be changed.

Speaking of the knife, it cannot fail to call attention to one of the stories found on Amanda Knox's blog when it tells of a kitchen knife taken from one of the characters, such as Edgar, from the kitchen of the house and secretly used by the same to self-harm.


The defence tried to claim the knife was too long as the wound was 8cm in and the knife longer than that. The prosecution successfully argued that the tip hit the hyoid bone, which is...8cm in from point of entry in Mez' neck....and which shows a serrated wound, compatible with the knife meeting resistance, and in addition, the knife matches the knife outline patch on the bed. Final as per Chieffi Supreme Court.


Crini believes the most incriminating evidence of all is against Knox:


…[…]… So there is a fluorescence in Romanelli's room, which remarks at the same time - we are not in the victim's room, we are not in the Knox room, indeed, that of Knox is totally cleaned from this point of view - simultaneously refers to DNA victim and Knox.


…[…]… That in this room of the Italian, in which the presence of the other two is certainly there ... yes, precisely in that room they were given a convention the two strangers, leaving their DNA exactly in the same spot in the room.’



In other words, Knox has trailed Meredith’s blood into Filomena’s room and shed her own DNA on exactly the same spot as the victim’s and that they were mixed together.

There is certainly plenty of forensic evidence against Knox, taking in the adjacent bathroom, hallway, Mez' and Filomena's room
 
So you don't have a citation for the date of the DNA testing of the knife blade sample nor for when Sollecito's (or Knox's) DNA experts were appointed and had the opportunity to observe any DNA testing. That suggests your claim lacks validity.

Also, the claim in the "Kemrit/Raper presentation" that the observations or objections (or criticisms) by the observers must be reported at the time of the observation or cannot be considered in the court trial is absolutely false; there is no such provision in Italian law, CPP Article 360, or any other CPP article.

The date of testing was 15 Nov 2007.
 
Here is the knife imprint on Mez' bed which forensic experts matched to Sollecito's kitchen knife.

1748185156935.png

The DNA of Mez was found on the blade of the said knife and Knox' DNA on the handle and lower hilt at the position where a person thrusting a stab would show it (as opposed to slicing food).



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