GW: Separating facts from fiction

No. You brought a list of 12 with Mickey Mouse entries. That's not the same as the consensus of the scientific community. If you want that list to be used, then you can defend the indefensible. If not, I'm afraid you'll have to come to terms with the fact that global warming is accepted by most people that know what they're talking about.
Nobody claimed consensus. If you think that there are not a significative amount of scientists that don't buy man made GW, based in some questionable entries, that's your problem. Actually, if you agree that there are lots of scientists agreeing GW skepticism, it wouldn't made any difference.
 
Please don't be stupid about trees and CO2 emissions. I worked on a study about trees sequestering CO2 from the atmosphere for a Department of Energy lab. If you're suggesting that trees emit CO2, at best I can call you ignorant.

That was one of Ronald Reagan's more famous whoppers---trees are a major source of air pollution---one that refuses to go away for some reason.
 
Wich I would like to know now is this: If we find wackos supporting man made GW would you concede the point?
Strip away the wacko's from either side and you're left with scientific consensus that GW is real and, er, well, not much on the other side.

Much like intelligent design, and our friends Behe and Dembrowski.

Anyone else notice a similarity between their claims about how their position is viewed by mainstream scientists and those of Edufer's?
 
Strip away the wacko's from either side and you're left with scientific consensus that GW is real and, er, well, not much on the other side.
Yes, ad hominem is one way to go. I'd prefer to take on the arguments. That's just me though.
 
I find it funny that you are defying us to debunk articles that you probably don't understand...

I posted links to 2 articles about scientists debunking it...it is definitely not a widely accepted viewpoint. According to others who do have the background, it is fatally flawed.
 
I find it funny that you are defying us to debunk articles that, as your arguments about deforestation indicate, you probably don't understand...
My claim is that plants also exhale CO2. We all know that plants made earth habitable turning Co2 into oxigen. Please read my post: Plants also exhale Co2, lots, wich is also true. I said no more and no less.

Well, I don't know what else add to this article :
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/01/0111_060111_plant_methane.html
Plants Exhale Methane, Contribute to Warming, Study Says
Brian Handwerk
for National Geographic News

January 11, 2006

Grasses and other green growth may produce 10 to 30 percent of Earth's annual methane output, a new study reports, making plants a surprising—and potentially significant—contributor to global warming.

Until the data were unveiled in this week's Nature, scientists had believed that plant-related methane formed only in oxygen-free environments, such as bogs.
 
My claim is that plants also exhale CO2. We all know that plants made earth habitable turning Co2 into oxigen. Please read my post: Plants also exhale Co2, lots, wich is also true. I said no more and no less.

Well, I don't know what else add to this article :
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/01/0111_060111_plant_methane.html
Plants Exhale Methane, Contribute to Warming, Study Says
Brian Handwerk
for National Geographic News

January 11, 2006

Grasses and other green growth may produce 10 to 30 percent of Earth's annual methane output, a new study reports, making plants a surprising—and potentially significant—contributor to global warming.

Until the data were unveiled in this week's Nature, scientists had believed that plant-related methane formed only in oxygen-free environments, such as bogs.

Here's how I understand it: plants have been producing greenhouse gases way before we have been around. But the point is, they also have been sequestering greenhouse gases, establishing an equilibrium between emission and sequestration in the process. I mean, there have been periods in Earth history when the mount of CO2 in the atmosphere were way larger than they are now too. But see, what's going on now is that we are releasing CO2 into the atmosphere at rates that probably never happened before in the history of the planet! Processes that typically take millions of years are happening in a matter of decades. Nobody can foresee the consequences of this.
 
Here's how I understand it: plants have been producing greenhouse gases way before we have been around. But the point is, they also have been sequestering greenhouse gases, establishing an equilibrium between emission and sequestration in the process. I mean, there have been periods in Earth history when the mount of CO2 in the atmosphere were way larger than they are now too. But see, what's going on now is that we are releasing CO2 into the atmosphere at rates that probably never happened before in the history of the planet! Processes that typically take millions of years are happening in a matter of decades. Nobody can foresee the consequences of this.
What I'm now studying is about what is contributing more to the Greenhouse effect, live organisms or man made pollution. Live organisms, including humans and plants, are exhaling greenhouse gases at a higher rate (because there are more humans and animals than before) . If we find a correlation of, lets say, 97% animal-3% fuel greenhouse gases, would it be correct to say that current GW is man made, but now because they burn fuel but because they breathe?
 
Err... I just read the article. It doen't address the arguments in the paper AFAICS.

Err... yes it does. Reading comprehension is not your forte, is it?

ETA In case you don't want to read around much, here are a few other articles linked from the first:
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=8
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=11
http://www.environmentaldefense.org/article.cfm?contentid=3804&CFID=21084385&CFTOKEN=29888831
(See a familiar name in the last one there?)
 
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Grasses and other green growth may produce 10 to 30 percent of Earth's annual methane output, a new study reports, making plants a surprising—and potentially significant—contributor to global warming.

Methane (CO4) is not carbon dioxide (CO2.)

Also, this is one very recent paper. It has yet to be backed up by further studies. The amount of methane produced in a forest is entirely speculation at this point. We'll have to see where future research goes.
 
Err... yes it does. Reading comprehension is not your forte, is it?

ETA In case you don't want to read around much, here are a few other articles linked from the first:
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=8
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=11
http://www.environmentaldefense.org/article.cfm?contentid=3804&CFID=21084385&CFTOKEN=29888831
(See a familiar name there?)

What I don't see in your article is:
- The algorythm used to generate the graphic and why is not available
- Debunk of this claim :
"In Mann’s program, he applied a scaling, but with a difference. Rather than subtract the mean of the entire th series length, he subtracted the mean of the 20 century portion, then divided by the standard error of the th 11
20 century portion. Most of his proxy series do not look like hockey sticks, they look like flat static, and since they don’t change in the 20 century this procedure did not make much difference. The mean of the last section is roughly the same as the mean of the whole series (as is the standard error) so either way of standardizing yields more or less the same result. But some of the series trend upwards in the 20 century. For these, the Mann method has a huge effect. Since the mean of the 20 century portion is
higher than the mean of the whole series, subtracting the 20 century mean ‘de-centers’ the series, shifting it off a zero mean. This, in turn, inflates the variance of these series."

- and this :
"Of crucial importance here: the data for the bottom panel of Figure 6 is from a folder called CENSORED on Mann’s FTP site. He did this very experiment himself and discovered that the PCs lose their hockey stick shape when the Graybill-Idso series are removed. In so doing he discovered that the hockey stick is not a global pattern, it is driven by a flawed group of US proxies that experts do not consider valid as climate indicators. But he did not disclose this fatal weakness of his results, and it only came to light because of Stephen McIntyre’s laborious efforts. "

- Ponit 3.4 in the paper...that ponit is crucial to Mann's arguments.

"(i) MBH98 identified the hockey stick shape as the dominant pattern (PC1) in the proxy data by using
a flawed PC method. Under a corrected method the hockey stick shape is demoted to the fourth PC
and the analysis suggests it accounts for less than 8 percent of the total explained variance, making
it at best a small background signal. If the inclusion of a single higher-order PC accounting for less
than 8 percent of the variance in a single region changes all the results, it does not prove that the
PC4 is actually the “dominant climate pattern”, instead it shows that the model lacks robustness and
the conclusions are unstable. Had this been admitted in 1998 the paper would likely never have
been published.

(ii) If the flawed bristlecone pine series are removed, the hockey stick disappears regardless of how the
PCs are calculated and regardless of how many are included. The hockey stick shape is not global,
it is a local phenomenon associated with eccentric proxies. Mann discovered this long ago and
never reported it. "

and

"(iii) The MBH98 model fails to attain statistical significance regardless of the number of PCs used,
regardless of whether the bristlecone pines are included or not, and regardless of any other
salvaging strategy proposed by Mann and his colleagues in recent weeks. It is no more informative
about the early millennial climate than a table of random numbers.

(iv) MBH99 acknowledged that the bristlecone series are flawed and need an adjustment to remove the
CO2 fertilization effect. But they only applied the correction to the pre-1400 portion of the series.
When we apply the correction to the full series length the hockey stick shape disappears regardless
of how many PCs are retained. "


And last but not least

"Mann also objected that we did not exactly replicate his computational steps or sequence of proxy rosters.
No one had ever replicated his results, and we now know others had tried but were also unsuccessful. To
date we are the closest anyone has been able to come in print. We were not bothered by Mann’s response
on this point, but it did seem pointless to differ over trivial issues. So we requested his computational
code to eliminate these easily-resolved differences. To our surprise he refused to supply his computer
code, a stance he maintains to today. As for the proxy sequence, in building his PCs it turns out he had
spliced together a number of different series in order to handle segments with missing data in the earliest
part of the analysis. This was not explained in his Nature paper so Steve had not implemented it in the
emulation program. We requested identification of the splicing sequence, which Mann refused to provide,
so Steve worked out an emulation as best he could. In the end nothing turned on it, though Mann
continues to point to it as a knock against our efforts. It is still not possible to identify the final form of
the data used in MBH98 since it requires forming sequences of spliced proxy PC segments and Mann has
given conflicting counts of the number of underlying vectors involved. Still, Steve’s emulation program is
very close to reproducing the original hockey stick, and is as close as anyone is able to get in the absence
of cooperation from Mann and his colleagues"
 
Methane (CO4) is not carbon dioxide (CO2.)

Also, this is one very recent paper. It has yet to be backed up by further studies. The amount of methane produced in a forest is entirely speculation at this point. We'll have to see where future research goes.

- When I claimed that CO2 is CO4?
- I said that plants produce CO2. But they do produce more O , usually , and I never denied that.
- I guess the effect in the atmosphere will be high. (Hint : Where does the word Greenhouse come from?)
 

Well, who was talking about conspiracy theories?

"In 1998, Exxon devised a plan to stall action on global warming. The plan was outlined in an internal memo (see the memo [PDF]). It promised, "Victory will be achieved when uncertainties in climate science become part of the conventional wisdom" for "average citizens" and "the media."

The company would recruit and train new scientists who lack a "history of visibility in the climate debate" and develop materials depicting supporters of action to cut greenhouse gas emissions as "out of touch with reality."

While there is no indication that ExxonMobil paid the climate skeptics directly and the scientists may have their own motivations for participating, the company poured millions of dollars into spreading its message worldwide. Here's where some of that money went."
 
Err... yes it does. Reading comprehension is not your forte, is it?

ETA In case you don't want to read around much, here are a few other articles linked from the first:
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=8
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=11
http://www.environmentaldefense.org/article.cfm?contentid=3804&CFID=21084385&CFTOKEN=29888831
(See a familiar name in the last one there?)
I read those, and also the re-rebuttals, wich are in the first page I sent.
http://www.climateaudit.org/index.php?p=22

"A scorecard on MM03

Our analysis in our two recent articles, in GRL and E&E, has moved well beyond the points made in MM03, while building on them. Mann has recently claimed that all of our claims in MM03 have been discredited. I thought it would be interesting to look back at the claims in MM03 and see how they’ve stood up.

Of the 10 claims in MM03, my scorecard indicates that 7 have either been explicitly confirmed or are obviously correct and unrebutted (and in 3 cases, the problems were more pervasive than known at the time of MM03); MBH have withdrawn 1 data set affecting 2 claims (the defects may only apply to the withdrawn data set, but other than mere assertion, there is no proof that the problems did not infect other calculations).

MBH have been required to issue 1 Corrigendum to date, have been required to issue a large new Supplementary Information as a condition of the Corrigendum, have provided the first public notice of a previously undisclosed directory on MBH98 at Mann’s FTP site and are still providing new and additional disclosure on MBH98 methods (even as recently as Nov. 22, 2004).

Contrary to MBH claims, the 10th claim is not discredited in Rutherford et al. [2005], which fails to deal with responses already on the record. More importantly, the 10th claim has led to more advanced (but not inconsistent) considerations of MBH98 through robustness, proxy validity and statistical significance, which have led to the 2 new peer-reviewed articles, MM05 (GRL) and MM05 (E&E)."
 

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