Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

You are being owned, repeatedly, for your blatantly misogynist posts.
Of course I have (says the poster who claimed they never used the words 'cross dressing pervs', because they said 'cross dressing perverts').
You are responding inappropriately to scenarios being presented to you, and becoming defensive and even aggressive when you're called out on it.
I'm from New Jersey. We get aggressive to our mothers on their birthday. But we don't call transwomen... what was your latest sickening descriptor?... ah yes, 'men who LARP their pornified fantasy".
If you think this is affecting your mental health then you definitely ought to leave the discussion. However, that's entirely up to you to accomplish. Other posters are under no obligation to stop responding to you. If you want to leave, all you have to do is to stop looking at the thread.
Train wrecks can be hard to look away from.
 
Agatha, addressing your questions more fully:

Yes. The trans group and Sisters Salon appear to have an ongoing adversarial relationship.
Not apparently in evidence, and no trans "group" has been identified, just one activist who claimed he was just walking past the library.
No. A women's group that posts "WOMEN ONLY" on their flier should expect to be adversarial with trans groups, who consider themselves women, yet are vocally and specifically excluded.
Because they aren't women. Women have the legal and moral right to meet and discuss matters of concern without men there. It's not adversarial for my French conversation group to exclude people who don't speak any French and don't want to learn. It's not adversarial for the Cat's Protection League to exclude dogs from their shelters. Why are men framing this as adversarial when they aren't part of the group for which the meeting is for?
Insult and strawman noted.

It is my understanding that a trans demonstration was already taking place nearby. Who registered first does not strike me as interesting. If you can expect a conflict, and do not want it, you do what you have to to avoid it, no matter who is right or wrong.
Rolfe has explained that there was no such demo; I took your word for it that there was.

But if conflict is expected, why is it that the women have to cancel their NHS funded meeting in response? Why can't the people causing the conflict - the men who can't comprehend that a women-only event isn't their concern - just not cause the conflict in the first place? If men causing conflict can stop women holding meetings, those men aren't demonstrators, they are terrorists who want to get their own way.
No, I do not. As I said... repeatedly... I think Sisters Salon has every right to do what they were doing. Why they would exclude men in the audience is a little baffling. I mean, what of a husband or dad who wants to understand women's concerns more in depth? But whatever, it's their right to be exclusive.
It is their right. And they have the right not to be censured or cancelled for it, because women have specific health concerns that do not directly impact men.

Can the hypothetical husband/dad not talk to their wife/daughter instead of making women who are strangers to them feel uncomfortable about talking about intimate matters?

And it's informed by long experience that when men are included, they take over the conversations with male concerns. You're probably familiar with surveys that show that in mixed groups, women talk 25-30% of the time, men speak 70-75% of the time, but men perceive that women have dominated the conversation.
 
I also love this new charge of 'misogyny' for objecting to bigotry and tranny bashing. The pearls and straws that do get clutched...

ETA: although I guess it's inevitable. The sides here are Tranny Bashers versus Trannys. You're automatically on the Team Baddies unless you reframe that to... something where you are the Good Guys? "I know! Let's reframe it to Misogynists versus Women's Rights! That makes us look like the good guys!"
 
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You're the only person using the slur "tranny".

It's not a new charge, it's been mentioned several times in response to blatant anti-women rhetoric, right from the inception of this thread.

ETA It's not "bashing" of anyone to ask them - or even tell them - to stay out of single-sex spaces in which they don't belong.
 
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I also love this new charge of 'misogyny' for objecting to bigotry and tranny bashing. The pearls and straws that do get clutched...
It's not a new charge, and it's not for objecting to bigotry and "tranny bashing", it's because your posts reek of contempt for women. Even if you sometimes say some of the right words when called on this behaviour, it's clear you don't mean them because a few posts later, you go back to posting more of the same contemptuous stuff.
 
It is my understanding that a trans demonstration was already taking place nearby. Who registered first does not strike me as interesting. If you can expect a conflict, and do not want it, you do what you have to to avoid it, no matter who is right or wrong.

No, I do not. As I said... repeatedly... I think Sisters Salon has every right to do what they were doing. Why they would exclude men in the audience is a little baffling. I mean, what of a husband or dad who wants to understand women's concerns more in depth? But whatever, it's their right to be exclusive.

As has happened all too often in this discussion, your understanding is incorrect. I have taken the trouble to transcribe exactly what that out-of-control menace-to-society said in his video.

"I had just finished a speech of defiance to the International Day of Homophobia, Biphobia and Transphobia. and I was fired up. I was walking home past the library and something went in my head, and I knew I could not let it go. So I walked into the library and found the room where they were having their meeting..."

He doesn't mention what the event he had attended earlier consisted of, but it was not at the library, nor can we say necessarily that it was "nearby", and nor was it apparently a "demonstration". It was something to do with the "International Day of Homophobia, Biphobia and Transphobia", whatever that happens to be, and he made a speech. It may have been an indoor meeting. It does not appear to have been a demonstration. It was somewhere else, and he was walking home from that.

Why on earth should Sisters Salon be expected to cancel an already-arranged and advertised Women's Health Hub because there was an entirely unrelated event happening somewhere else in the town? You're making even less sense than usual.

It appears that the trans-activist knew that the Women's Health Hub was meeting at that time, in the building he happened to be passing, whether because he had seen advertising in advance or because he happened to see a notification on the building as he passed, we don't know. Such was his hatred of Sisters Salon for organising anything that men were excluded from, he decided on the spur of the moment to disrupt the meeting. That's it. That's the action you think is justified, or at least understandable, because it's absolutely natural that a man would be "fired up" to the point where he would lash out at a group of women discussing women's health issues.

Why would a women's group exclude men from a women's health meeting? You seriously find that baffling? You seriously think that women wouldn't mind talking about their intimate health issues in front of someone else's husband or dad? The group does arrange meetings which include men, maybe to address exactly the point you raise. But you seem to believe that every single meeting should be open to men, no matter how much women might feel excluded by the presence of men, and how much other provision there is for men. It's their right, but one you believe they ought not to exercise. Because menz feelz, or something.

How misogynistic is that?

The only reference to a demonstration is at the end of the video, where the trans-activist claimed to the police who arrested him that his action was a protest demonstration. On that basis, the captured, pro-trans police immediately let him go.
 
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Women have the legal and moral right to meet and discuss matters of concern without men there. It's not adversarial for my French conversation group to exclude people who don't speak any French and don't want to learn. It's not adversarial for the Cats' Protection League to exclude dogs from their shelters. Why are men framing this as adversarial when they aren't part of the group for which the meeting is for?

But if conflict is expected, why is it that the women have to cancel their NHS funded meeting in response? Why can't the people causing the conflict - the men who can't comprehend that a women-only event isn't their concern - just not cause the conflict in the first place? If men causing conflict can stop women holding meetings, those men aren't demonstrators, they are terrorists who want to get their own way.
And it's informed by long experience that when men are included, they take over the conversations with male concerns. You're probably familiar with surveys that show that in mixed groups, women talk 25-30% of the time, men speak 70-75% of the time, but men perceive that women have dominated the conversation.
ETA It's not "bashing" of anyone to ask them - or even tell them - to stay out of single-sex spaces in which they don't belong.

Just quoting that for the wise truth that it is.

We seem to have reached a situation where all the trans-activists have to do is make an objection or create some sort of disturbance, and it's the women's meeting which has to be abandoned. That's what the trans-activists want, and they're getting their way so long as this behaviour is condoned, as it was by the captured, trans-loving Brighton police.
 
Not apparently in evidence, and no trans "group" has been identified, just one activist who claimed he was just walking past the library.
Sisters Salon themselves said their conflict had been going on for months, and the activist was said to be returning home from 'another event'.
Because they aren't women. Women have the legal and moral right to meet and discuss matters of concern without men there. It's not adversarial for my French conversation group to exclude people who don't speak any French and don't want to learn.
What makes you think a male wouldn't want to learn?
It's not adversarial for the Cat's Protection League to exclude dogs from their shelters.
For safety reasons. Are you suggesting any men listening in would attempt to eat the women?
Why are men framing this as adversarial when they aren't part of the group for which the meeting is for?
Probably the sign that said "WOMEN ONLY" but really meant "JK, NATAL FEMALES ONLY, ◊◊◊◊ OFF TRANNY"
Rolfe has explained that there was no such demo; I took your word for it that there was.

But if conflict is expected, why is it that the women have to cancel their NHS funded meeting in response?
They do not, as I said. It would be smart though, if you want the event to be successful, to host it somewhere less in the line of fire. When it is pouring rain outside, you sometimes don't play soccer. That doesn't mean anyone is right or wrong, just smart.
Why can't the people causing the conflict - the men who can't comprehend that a women-only event isn't their concern - just not cause the conflict in the first place?
They should. A leopard should change those unsightly spots, too.
If men causing conflict can stop women holding meetings, those men aren't demonstrators, they are terrorists who want to get their own way.
No, they are ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊. The primary beef should be taken up with the police who did the de-arresting. I don't see grounds for that.
It is their right. And they have the right not to be censured or cancelled for it, because women have specific health concerns that do not directly impact men.

Can the hypothetical husband/dad not talk to their wife/daughter instead of making women who are strangers to them feel uncomfortable about talking about intimate matters?
He could. He might also be interested in a broader opinion, or perhaps his wife was unavailable to attend and asked him to take notes, or he wants to prepare for the questions and concerns his young daughter may have.

See, there's really no reason to say "hit the road, Y-chromosome haver". There are perfectly valid reasons to accept men in the audience, and no really good ones to exclude them.
And it's informed by long experience that when men are included, they take over the conversations with male concerns. You're probably familiar with surveys that show that in mixed groups, women talk 25-30% of the time, men speak 70-75% of the time, but men perceive that women have dominated the conversation.
I have heard that. Since the topic was women's health issues, I wouldn't expect men to be too vocal. It would be a listening-only kind of gig walking in.

Not particularly relevant, but I attended a female safety on campus talk when one of my daughters went to college. Very female concern specific, and quite a few of us dads in attendance with the primarily new female student audience. Lots of Q&A at the end, but I don't recall any guy saying a word. For my part, I talked with my daughter about the content afterwards over coffee.
 
You're the only person using the slur "tranny".
Ya 'cross dressing perverts' and 'LARPing to pornified fantasies' is so much more proper. You got me there.

You got any of that 'slur' criticism directed at those actually using such vile language ITT? I might have missed your scathing rebuke of it.
It's not a new charge, it's been mentioned several times in response to blatant anti-women rhetoric, right from the inception of this thread.

ETA It's not "bashing" of anyone to ask them - or even tell them - to stay out of single-sex spaces in which they don't belong.
That's not what I'm objecting to. It's how transwomen are being characterized, and it is 100% unapologetic bashing.
 
As has happened all too often in this discussion, your understanding is incorrect.
Oh Jesus Christ, the activist was speaking at some kind of event for the International Day of freaking Transphobia. Whether it was a demonstration or a goddamned musical is irrelevant. You're going beyond petty.
 
It would be smart though, if you want the event to be successful, to host it somewhere less in the line of fire. When it is pouring rain outside, you sometimes don't play soccer. That doesn't mean anyone is right or wrong, just smart.

All we know is that the Sisters Salon event was being held in the library, and that the "International Day of Homophobia, Biphobia and Transphobia" event was being held somewhere else. Somewhere else within walking distance, but that could be half a mile or a mile or more away. It seems to me quite unlikely that Sisters Salon even knew the other event was taking place. And even if they did, are you seriously suggesting they ought to have said, we need to cancel the NHS-funded health hub we've been organising for weeks, because there is another event somewhere in the city where some people who don't like us might be in attendance? Really?

Probably the sign that said "WOMEN ONLY" but really meant "JK, NATAL FEMALES ONLY, ◊◊◊◊ OFF TRANNY"

I think that says more about you than it does about Sisters Salon.

And as for the conflict having gone on for months, does it occur to you to consider who started it? The women who want to run an absolutely legal single-sex space for women to discuss health concerns, or the men who are so incensed at being excluded from anything that they object and oppose and disrupt?

You mention successful female-centred events from which men are not excluded as if this wipes away any justification for having any female-only events. You pay lip service to women having the right to single-sex association, but then invariably backtrack with "but why would they want to?" and "maybe some men have a legitimate interest" and finally, the mask slipping entirely, declare that any "women only" designation actually means "JK, NATAL FEMALES ONLY, ◊◊◊◊ OFF TRANNY".

This is despicable levels of misogyny.
 
Oh Jesus Christ, the activist was speaking at some kind of event for the International Day of freaking Transphobia. Whether it was a demonstration or a goddamned musical is irrelevant. You're going beyond petty.

It is relevant, because you claimed it was a demonstration. There's no evidence that it was. There is no evidence that it was even out of doors. It's perfectly likely that it was inside a building. But more importantly, it was SOMEWHERE ELSE. It wasn't at the library, and there's no evidence it was even nearby the library. It's highly unlikely that Sisters Salon was even aware of it. It was also AT AN EARLIER TIME. The disruption was caused by a single individual who happened to be walking past the library after that event had concluded. It was not related in any way to this other event with the strange title, other than that the guy with the impulse control issues had attended that event earlier.

When you're in a hole, stop digging. Also, stop getting angry when you realise you've completely misinterpreted everything.
 
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What makes you think a male wouldn't want to learn?
I didn't say they wouldn't. I think you must have misunderstood the analogy. I said it's not unreasonable to exclude people who don't speak French and don't want to learn. Just as it's not unreasonable to exclude men from a women's health meeting that has been designed to be a single-sex meeting.

My French conversation group is mixed sex (and yes, the males do dominate it despite my best efforts to keep the conversation more balanced, and there are at the moment fewer males in the group than females).
For safety reasons. Are you suggesting any men listening in would attempt to eat the women?

Probably the sign that said "WOMEN ONLY" but really meant "JK, NATAL FEMALES ONLY, ◊◊◊◊ OFF TRANNY"

They do not, as I said. It would be smart though, if you want the event to be successful, to host it somewhere less in the line of fire. When it is pouring rain outside, you sometimes don't play soccer. That doesn't mean anyone is right or wrong, just smart.
The Idahobit event was elsewhere. What makes the Central Library "in the line of fire"? Where would be "out of the line of fire"? Please do explain where a group of women can meet in their own city, if not in a central publicly-funded building?
They should. A leopard should change those unsightly spots, too.
A trans-identifying man was so beholden to his violent impulses that he decided to break the the law instead of restraining his impulses - and you excuse it by making an analogy to leopards and spots? If it's your contention that males should just be expected to be violent because leopards can't change their spots, society is in serious trouble. The social contract expects people to restrain themselves from lawbreaking.

No, they are ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊. The primary beef should be taken up with the police who did the de-arresting. I don't see grounds for that.

He could. He might also be interested in a broader opinion, or perhaps his wife was unavailable to attend and asked him to take notes, or he wants to prepare for the questions and concerns his young daughter may have.
And then he'd be welcomed at the meetings that Sisters Salon hold regularly that do include men.
See, there's really no reason to say "hit the road, Y-chromosome haver". There are perfectly valid reasons to accept men in the audience, and no really good ones to exclude them.
There are many good reasons to exclude them, not the least of which is that it's a meeting where women need to feel safe to discuss their intimate concerns without males.
I have heard that. Since the topic was women's health issues, I wouldn't expect men to be too vocal. It would be a listening-only kind of gig walking in.
And yet, in mixed sex groups men do dominate. They just don't realise that they are doing it.
Not particularly relevant, but I attended a female safety on campus talk when one of my daughters went to college. Very female concern specific, and quite a few of us dads in attendance with the primarily new female student audience. Lots of Q&A at the end, but I don't recall any guy saying a word. For my part, I talked with my daughter about the content afterwards over coffee.
Agreed, not particularly relevant. Talking about safety is a lot different from talking about intimate matters such as endometriosis or other female-specific health concerns.
 
They do not, as I said. It would be smart though, if you want the event to be successful, to host it somewhere less in the line of fire. When it is pouring rain outside, you sometimes don't play soccer. That doesn't mean anyone is right or wrong, just smart.
But the trans activist was wrong.

I'd call you out for victim-blaming, but I think it's actually a good thing in this case. You're saying we can't rely on having a civil society when there's trans activists around.

Which is what we keep telling you.
 
All we know is that the Sisters Salon event was being held in the library, and that the "International Day of Homophobia, Biphobia and Transphobia" event was being held somewhere else. Somewhere else within walking distance, but that could be half a mile or a mile or more away. It seems to me quite unlikely that Sisters Salon even knew the other event was taking place. And even if they did, are you seriously suggesting they ought to have said, we need to cancel the NHS-funded health hub we've been organising for weeks, because there is another event somewhere in the city where some people who don't like us might be in attendance? Really?



I think that says more about you than it does about Sisters Salon.

And as for the conflict having gone on for months, does it occur to you to consider who started it? The women who want to run an absolutely legal single-sex space for women to discuss health concerns, or the men who are so incensed at being excluded from anything that they object and oppose and disrupt?

You mention successful female-centred events from which men are not excluded as if this wipes away any justification for having any female-only events. You pay lip service to women having the right to single-sex association, but then invariably backtrack with "but why would they want to?" and "maybe some men have a legitimate interest" and finally, the mask slipping entirely, declare that any "women only" designation actually means "JK, NATAL FEMALES ONLY, ◊◊◊◊ OFF TRANNY".

This is despicable levels of misogyny.
Not to mention of course, that while protest is allowed by law, it must be a legal protest. Breaking the law in protest is NEVER justified. This TRA scumbucket should have remained arrested and then been charged. If a woman were to do what he did to a transgender meeting, you can bank on the fact she would charged, found guilty and sentenced to prison. If a person can be jailed for hurty Tweets, or fined £9,000 for standing alone and silently praying near an abortion clinic*, falsely pulling a fire alarm ought to get you a year inside - minimum

* not to be taken as an endorsement of prayer, or support for "pro-life".
 
Rosa Parks should have just gone to the back?
Apples and oranges. What Rosa Parks did was non-compliance, or if you like, civil disobedience. She hurt no-one and caused no disruption.
That TRA scumbucket, on the other hand, caused a lot of distress, caused the whole building to be evacuated (including children in a creche) and caused first responders to be unnecessarily dispatched, thereby putting the general public in danger. The two are simple not compariable in any way, shape or form.

(PS: and please stop trying to play the Devil's advocate - you're not very good at it!)
 
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All we know is that the Sisters Salon event was being held in the library, and that the "International Day of Homophobia, Biphobia and Transphobia" event was being held somewhere else. Somewhere else within walking distance, but that could be half a mile or a mile or more away. It seems to me quite unlikely that Sisters Salon even knew the other event was taking place. And even if they did, are you seriously suggesting they ought to have said, we need to cancel the NHS-funded health hub we've been organising for weeks, because there is another event somewhere in the city where some people who don't like us might be in attendance? Really?

I think that says more about you than it does about Sisters Salon.

And as for the conflict having gone on for months, does it occur to you to consider who started it? The women who want to run an absolutely legal single-sex space for women to discuss health concerns, or the men who are so incensed at being excluded from anything that they object and oppose and disrupt?

You mention successful female-centred events from which men are not excluded as if this wipes away any justification for having any female-only events. You pay lip service to women having the right to single-sex association, but then invariably backtrack with "but why would they want to?" and "maybe some men have a legitimate interest" and finally, the mask slipping entirely, declare that any "women only" designation actually means "JK, NATAL FEMALES ONLY, ◊◊◊◊ OFF TRANNY".

This is despicable levels of misogyny.

It is relevant, because you claimed it was a demonstration. There's no evidence that it was. There is no evidence that it was even out of doors. It's perfectly likely that it was inside a building. But more importantly, it was SOMEWHERE ELSE. It wasn't at the library, and there's no evidence it was even nearby the library. It's highly unlikely that Sisters Salon was even aware of it. It was also AT AN EARLIER TIME. The disruption was caused by a single individual who happened to be walking past the library after that event had concluded. It was not related in any way to this other event with the strange title, other than that the guy with the impulse control issues had attended that event earlier.

When you're in a hole, stop digging. Also, stop getting angry when you realise you've completely misinterpreted everything.

@Rolfe , you make my point for me. Thanks for saving me the typing.

Would someone mind explaining what Thermal's point is? Because I've got nothing.
 

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