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Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

I think you're stretching to justify sympathy for the aggressor over the victim.

I don't find violent overreactions relatable, except in the sense that I have from time to time overreacted, and then felt greatly ashamed of myself afterwards. Does Our Hero feel ashamed of his overreaction? I might find that relatable.

But no, I don't relate to the man who hits his wife because she cheated on him. I don't relate to the road rager who rages on the road because someone cut him off in traffic. I don't relate to the Karen who trashes a point of sale because her pizza was cold. I don't relate to the incel who thinks his misogyny is justified because women aren't interested in his attentions.
Not sure when we made the jump from pulling a false fire alarm like a schoolboy to beating your wife...
And yet, your knee-jerk response was to attempt an apologia for the aggressor, not the victim.
No, my knee jerk response was Rolfe's intro that this was just "another juicy cherry", which she has been using to describe the perversion and violent malice of them cross dressing pervs. I found the dialing back to basically schoolboy pranking to be petty. Really. Read my response again.
Well, that's progress, anyway. Maybe next time you'll find the stomach to say the trans/ally aggressor was a twat because of their unjustified aggression towards women in particular. Maybe next time you'll even lead with that.
Of course he was a twat. It's hardly aggression towards women, though.

I thought it would be another of Rolfe's tweets that got challenged and she got quiet about, like the 2003 anonymous... I don't know what that was, an AOL chatroom maybe?... tweety that she went quiet about.
 
I have explained this to you already.
Yes you have, very unpersuasively.
Bryson is not a "nonconformer". People like Bryson (because he is not alone) are not "nonconformers". You are indifferent to the problem they pose.
Bryson is a domestic violence inmate, who did not nor was ever accused of assaulting women in womens restrooms, and IIRC, was never known to even enter one. He seems to pose no threat to women at all, being incarcerated in a men's prison.
It is causing problems. You just don't care about the problems it is causing.
So you keep saying, rhetorically telling me what I care about, and don't. Rinse and repeat.
That's the only problem you care about. When trans people are being dicks to women, you just excuse it as "activists", outliers, or whatever.
Not true. As "I've already explained to you" :) , this activist was doing generic activist ◊◊◊◊. It was not "another juicy cherry" example of them cross dressing violent pervs.
 
Bryson is a domestic violence inmate, who did not nor was ever accused of assaulting women in womens restrooms, and IIRC, was never known to even enter one. He seems to pose no threat to women at all, being incarcerated in a men's prison.
Bryson is not alone. Which makes your defense of ignoring him and others like him ring hollow.
So you keep saying, rhetorically telling me what I care about, and don't. Rinse and repeat.
You keep proving me right, every single time. So long as you keep proving me right, I'm going to keep pointing it out.
Not true. As "I've already explained to you" :) , this activist was doing generic activist ◊◊◊◊.
Except he is not actually a generic activist. He is a trans activist. To pretend that a trans activist has no connection to transgenderism is quite odd.
 
Thermal, let's recap here. At no point did I claim that the TRA guy set off that fire alarm at random. He makes it perfectly clear in the video that he was passing the library, knew that there was a meeting taking place run by people he had a grudge against, and deliberately found the room where that meeting was happening before setting off the alarm.

I referred to him as a "juicy cherry" because a little earlier in the thread, every time someone posted an example - or multiple examples - of trans-identifying men behaving outrageously, Mycroft (I think it was) would dismiss this as cherry-picking, eventually saying "look what a juicy cherry you found there" with no further comment, to every post. This is another example I fully expected to be dismissed as just one more offensive cherry being picked from the enormous orchard of sweet inoffensive trans folks we unaccountably never hear about.

You need to understand the situation in Brighton. The town is entirely in thrall to the trans lobby. It is literally impossible for any group of women to meet for any female-related purpose without one or more trans-identifying men insisting on joining in, and calling "transphobia" if anyone tries to deny him entry. A few years ago a female rape victim in the town was finding comfort from a women's self-help group when a man (just a man, apparently) joined in and simply sat listening to the various trauma stories from the women there. She couldn't tolerate his presence, and had to leave. She was told that since this (entirely male-looking) person identified as a woman, "she" had every right to be there and deserved support too. The victim begged and pleaded and lobbied for just one meeting a week to be designated for women only, no males permitted, but this was denied. By an organisation that also ran mixed-sex groups and trans-only groups and men-only groups. She was called a bigot and a transphobe.

In Brighton in particular it takes enormous courage and dedication to set up a women's meeting group from which males are excluded. You can't just do it quietly and get on with it, because inevitably one or more trans-identifying men will make it his business to insist on taking part. It doesn't matter what the subject is, whether it's miscarriage support or childcare or breast-feeding support or lesbians wanting to meet other lesbians, trans-identifying men consider the very existence of such groups transphobic if men are not allowed to join, and will insist on joining.

That is the background against which the women who run "Sisters Salon" have chosen to make a stand. They are standing out against the mass attack of the TRAs against anything female-only. They are responding to these attacks and stating their purpose clearly and firmly. And they are pointing out that it is not trans people who are being excluded, but male people. Trans-identifying females are welcome to attend.

You immediately responded to that by calling them Nazis and "vocally anti-trans" and supporting the Pride organiser who set off the fire alarm as being justified in his actions. You think these women are "being dicks to trans [identifying men]" and so are legitimate targets for these men's ire.

Do you really, seriously, genuinely believe that women should never be able to organise a women-only meeting for any purpose at all without being obliged to allow trans-identifying men to join? If so, I'd like to hear the justification. Alternatively, how would you like women in Brighton to go about organising a women-only group that would meet your standards of being suitably deferent to the males who are going to try to join?

Now, I believe you should stop accusing me of "clutching at straws" or grabbing "fig-leaves" or (I seem to remember) "desperation". It makes it sound as if you are accusing me of deliberately arguing a position I know to be untenable. This is absolutely not the case.

My stated position that all trans-identifying men are cross-dressing pervs? Not entirely, They're all cross-dressers - well, apart from the ones who don't bother and simply assert their inner womanhood without changing anything about the outer man. Pervs? The motivation seems to be sexual in most of the cases I come across. The incidence of perversion among the activists and those promoting a trans identity is disturbing, yes.

What I am mainly trying to counter, though, is your repeated assertion that trans-identifying men are "the little guy". The underdog. The oppressed. The marginalised. It is in the service of this assertion that you insist women must always give in to the demands of the trans lobby, regardless of how much upset or grief it causes to the women. The cherishing of the "little guy" must come above the comfort of anyone else, particularly of anyone female. But you can't extend all these concessions to your "little guy" without also extending them to the aggressive, assertive trans activists whose mission in life is to make certain that women will never meet in a single-sex group without their presence. The more cases of these assertive, disruptive, narcissistic men we show you, the more you brush them aside in your pursuit of always prioritising those you characterise as "the little guy". Women mustn't be dicks to anyone who asserts a trans identity. Men asserting a trans identity being dicks to women seems to be fine with you though.

I am becoming increasingly incredulous that this "little guy" exists at all. The archetypical example, "Christine Goodall", to accommodate whose finer feelings and existential dread of being "outed" as trans our laws were re-written (resulting in the horrible mess we have today), turns out to be a burly hunk of a bus driver whom nobody at all, ever, who wasn't both blind and deaf, could ever have accidentally mistaken for a woman. And a self-proclaimed trans activist. Even the trans-identifying men I know who behave decently in society and don't scream "◊◊◊◊ you" and set off fire alarms at women-only groups, are strong personalities who can stand up for themselves and give as good as they get. I believe women deserve protection from the trans activists more than trans-identifying men deserve protection from being excluded from lesbian dating apps and stillbirth support groups.
 
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Thermal, let's recap here. At no point did I claim that the TRA guy set off that fire alarm at random.
No idea what you are talking about, but ok.
You need to understand the situation in Brighton...
Ok, good stuff, and thank you, I appreciate this perspective. I would have also appreciated it the first half dozen times I ashed you specifically about it and you blew me off, but I'll take what I can get.

So your trans activists are indeed exponentially pushier and more invasive than anything else I've ever seen. I guess I can understand your dislike of them a lot better. I'd probably hesitate to defend anyone who butted into any meeting just to insert themselves where they probably knew they weren;t welcome. Thanks for taking the time to spell all that out.
Do you really, seriously, genuinely believe that women should never be able to organise a women-only meeting for any purpose at all without being obliged to allow trans-identifying men to join?
Of course not. Freedom of association, including restricted association, is a basic right.
What I am mainly trying to counter, though, is your repeated assertion that trans-identifying men are "the little guy".
Over here, they very much are. No towns overrun with aggressive activists that get their way. You might run across one or two transpeople a year (barring living or working near one). And they very much have gotten pushed around and marginalized. But again, your experience is very different.
 
No idea what you are talking about, but ok.

Ok, good stuff, and thank you, I appreciate this perspective. I would have also appreciated it the first half dozen times I ashed you specifically about it and you blew me off, but I'll take what I can get.

So your trans activists are indeed exponentially pushier and more invasive than anything else I've ever seen. I guess I can understand your dislike of them a lot better. I'd probably hesitate to defend anyone who butted into any meeting just to insert themselves where they probably knew they weren;t welcome. Thanks for taking the time to spell all that out.

Of course not. Freedom of association, including restricted association, is a basic right.

Over here, they very much are. No towns overrun with aggressive activists that get their way. You might run across one or two transpeople a year (barring living or working near one). And they very much have gotten pushed around and marginalized. But again, your experience is very different.

Well, lucky you. You certainly do live in a bubble. Stories from all over the world, particularly Canada, Australia and New Zealand, are absolute cookie-cutter replicas of the Brighton situation. The rape crisis centre in Vancouver that was set up as a women-only service that was vandalised, covered in offensive graffiti and had a dead rat nailed to the door. Sall Grover in Australia being financially ruined by an aggressive trans-identifying man because she wouldn't let him join the women-only online social media group she founded. (The judge found in favour of the trans-identifying man, just as the Brighton police de-arrested this charmer as soon as he claimed to be mounting a "protest".)

I could go on and on. But I and others have provided multiple examples already, and you ignore them, or find some way to dismiss them and excuse the trans bullies because they're the "little guys" being goaded unbearably by these selfish women. You've been shown pictures and videos of their violent, abusive protests against women merely trying to speak about this. I've described my own personal experiences of the mobs that turn up in Edinburgh and Glasgow, banging pots and pans, screaming obscenities and jostling up close to women meeting to discuss the issue.

People have lost their jobs and their livelihoods because the trans lobby has targeted them with complaints to their employees and agents that they've said or done something "transphobic". One author of children's books is now driving a lorry because of this. People have been thrown out of university courses. Often the "transphobia" consists of voicing concern that putting children on puberty blockers might not be the best thing for their long-term health.

And every time anyone tries to explain any of this to you, you reinterpret it as the oppressed "little guy" striking back against the bully women, who deserve all they get for not lying down and letting the trans juggernaut roll right over them. You immediately condemned "Sisters Salon" for what amounted only to clear statements of their position, as providing a female-only space which does not include men, and decided on that basis that attacking them was justified.

I don't know how your little corner of town has escaped what's happening all over the world. But I do know that tackling the sort of people we're dealing with by assuming they're the oppressed "little guy" and giving them all they want will not end well for women or children.

ETA: and the very idea that this hasn't been explained to you multiple times, by me and by others, or that we "blew you off" when you asked about it, is ludicrous. I had the impression that you were simply scrolling past my longer, more considered posts and only homing in on side remarks you could paint as bigotry or hatred. It seems I was right. But even so, the amount of ignored evidence is pretty astonishing.
 
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Well, lucky you. You certainly do live in a bubble. Stories from all over the world, particularly Canada, Australia and New Zealand, are absolute cookie-cutter replicas of the Brighton situation. The rape crisis centre in Vancouver that was set up as a women-only service that was vandalised, covered in offensive graffiti and had a dead rat nailed to the door. Sal Grover in Australia being financially ruined by an aggressive trans-identifying man because she wouldn't let him join the women-only online social media group she founded. (The judge found in favour of the trans-identifying man, just as the Brighton police de-arrested this charmer as soon as he claimed to be mounting a "protest".)

I could go on and on. But I and others have provided multiple examples already, and you ignore them, or find some way to dismiss them and excuse the trans bullies because they're the "little guys" being goaded unbearably by these selfish women. You've been shown pictures and videos of their violent, abusive protests against women merely trying to speak about this. I've described my own personal experiences of the mobs that turn up in Edinburgh and Glasgow, banging pots and pans, screaming obscenities and jostling up close to women meeting to discuss the issue.

People have lost their jobs and their livelihoods because the trans lobby has targeted them with complaints to their employees and agents that they've said or done something "transphobic". One author of children's books is now driving a lorry because of this. People have been thrown out of university courses. Often the "transphobia" consists of voicing concern that putting children on puberty blockers might not be the best thing for their long-term health.

And every time anyone tries to explain any of this to you, you reinterpret it as the oppressed "little guy" striking back against the bully women, who deserve all they get for not lying down and letting the trans juggernaut roll right over them.

I don't know how your little corner of town has escaped what's happening all over the world. But I do know that tackling the sort of people we're dealing with by assuming they're the oppressed "little guy" and giving them all they want will not end well for women or children.

ETA: and the very idea that this hasn't been explained to you multiple times, by me and by others, or that we "blew you off" when you asked about it, is ludicrous. I had the impression that you were simply scrolling past my longer, more considered posts and only homing in on side remarks you could paint as bigotry or hatred. It seems I was right. But even so, the amount of ignored evidence is pretty astonishing.
Steve-bingo.gif
 
She gleefully posts pics of trans people in their homes, to show us what pervs they are.

Where do you think these pictures come from? I didn't put spy cameras in their houses. I didn't creep inside their homes with my phone at the ready. These are pictures they take themselves and post on the internet. There is a word for that. Exhibitionism.
 
People have lost their jobs and their livelihoods because the trans lobby has targeted them with complaints to their employees* and agents that they've said or done something "transphobic". One author of children's books is now driving a lorry because of this. People have been thrown out of university courses. Often the "transphobia" consists of voicing concern that putting children on puberty blockers might not be the best thing for their long-term health.

* employers, of course.
 
Indeed. Thermal wants people to accept that his experience (which may be of minor exposure to transwomen even where he lives) is some sort of exemplar for the rest of the world. Arrogance personified.

Many people in this thread are seeing the tide turning against ridiculous TRA demands. The US has been becoming increasingly behind the rest of the world. Maybe be will see it catch up.
 
Consequences of the Supreme Court judgement continue:

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-conference-after-supreme-court-gender-ruling

Labour to cancel its women’s conference after supreme court gender ruling​

The NEC has been told the party is at risk of a legal challenge by going ahead with the conference, according to LabourList, and could face protests and direct action if the conference goes ahead as usual on the basis of self-identification.

Guidance to the NEC also advises that “all positive action measures relating to women in the party’s rules and procedures shall be interpreted on the basis of biological sex at birth. Guidance shall be issued to all party units and relevant stakeholders to this effect.
 
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Past non-legal social enforcement has broken down under the pressure of trans activism.
What trans-activism has really achieved is the conflation of sex and gender in public policy, thereby creating situations such as when Wi Spa announced that their hands were tied by California antidiscrimination law or when the PDGA buckled under the same law. Social enforcement mechanisms remain in place wherever people still want them to exist, but that probably doesn't include California.
What worked in the past is now failing.
True, but not for the reasons you gave. What has worked for trans rights activists is a legal strategy focused on redefining existing laws by redefining keys terms in those laws, rather than actually convincing the median women voter than intact males ought to be sharing their spaces.
In order to maintain sex segregation, laws are now required.
Precisely the opposite is true. Americans need to clarify the state of the law just as Great Britain did, along with rolling back confusingly written laws which define sex so as to include one's feelings about what one's sex ought to be. We need to allow spa owners and gym owners and other public accommodations to set their own policies unburdened by clumsy top-down solutions written by state legislators who know even less about these issues than a casual lurker in this thread.
 
Not sure when we made the jump from pulling a false fire alarm like a schoolboy to beating your wife...

No, my knee jerk response was Rolfe's intro that this was just "another juicy cherry", which she has been using to describe the perversion and violent malice of them cross dressing pervs. I found the dialing back to basically schoolboy pranking to be petty. Really. Read my response again.
This wasn't a broccoli-headed clown pulling a prank for TikTok. This was an act of vandalism targeted at a group of people he didn't like.

You keep trying to downplay the aggression, and dismiss the victims.

Of course he was a twat. It's hardly aggression towards women, though.
It was literally vandalism targeting a group of women.

I thought it would be another of Rolfe's tweets that got challenged and she got quiet about, like the 2003 anonymous... I don't know what that was, an AOL chatroom maybe?... tweety that she went quiet about.
Anything other than what it actually was, seems to be your motto.
 
Well, lucky you. You certainly do live in a bubble.
I live in a US state that has nearly double the population of all of Scotland. If I live in a bubble, you live in a much smaller one. Had that occurred to you?
Stories from all over the world, particularly Canada, Australia and New Zealand, are absolute cookie-cutter replicas of the Brighton situation.
Yes, which is why I've been asking about these other bubbles. They are not the larger experience, much like your tweetys are not representative of transpeople.
The rape crisis centre in Vancouver that was set up as a women-only service that was vandalised, covered in offensive graffiti and had a dead rat nailed to the door. Sall Grover in Australia being financially ruined by an aggressive trans-identifying man because she wouldn't let him join the women-only online social media group she founded. (The judge found in favour of the trans-identifying man, just as the Brighton police de-arrested this charmer as soon as he claimed to be mounting a "protest".)

I could go on and on. But I and others have provided multiple examples already, and you ignore them, or find some way to dismiss them and excuse the trans bullies because they're the "little guys" being goaded unbearably by these selfish women. You've been shown pictures and videos of their violent, abusive protests against women merely trying to speak about this. I've described my own personal experiences of the mobs that turn up in Edinburgh and Glasgow, banging pots and pans, screaming obscenities and jostling up close to women meeting to discuss the issue.
Yes, when you focus on a hostile protest, you will see the worst of the worst behaviors. We can do that with any politically charged issue, and declare the behavior we see as representative of day to day interactions. It's not really illuminating, and you know it.
People have lost their jobs and their livelihoods because the trans lobby has targeted them with complaints to their employees and agents that they've said or done something "transphobic". One author of children's books is now driving a lorry because of this. People have been thrown out of university courses. Often the "transphobia" consists of voicing concern that putting children on puberty blockers might not be the best thing for their long-term health.

And every time anyone tries to explain any of this to you, you reinterpret it as the oppressed "little guy" striking back against the bully women, who deserve all they get for not lying down and letting the trans juggernaut roll right over them. You immediately condemned "Sisters Salon" for what amounted only to clear statements of their position, as providing a female-only space which does not include men, and decided on that basis that attacking them was justified.
That's a lie. I wish you wouldn't lie so much. Not only did I never say it was justified, I said specifically that it was not.
I don't know how your little corner of town has escaped what's happening all over the world.
I've told you repeatedly. What's that you were saying about not listening? My massive little bubble doesn't treat transpeople like freaks and post hateful, lying tweetys about them nonstop.

I note you didn't have anything to say about that frozen tomato juice post you put up from 2003 (unsourced and unidentified). Have you considered the logistics of what was claimed? I don't even think it would work. I think being unable to expel gas or defecate would render anyone trying to do so violently ill, and that large chunks of suddenly discharging tomato paste would fill the user's pants so quickly that they would never do so more than one trial. But I suppose it hadn't occurred to you that it was pretty obviously a tranny bashing bull ◊◊◊◊ post being recirculated and regurgitated for decades, did it?
But I do know that tackling the sort of people we're dealing with by assuming they're the oppressed "little guy" and giving them all they want will not end well for women or children.

ETA: and the very idea that this hasn't been explained to you multiple times, by me and by others, or that we "blew you off" when you asked about it, is ludicrous. I had the impression that you were simply scrolling past my longer, more considered posts and only homing in on side remarks you could paint as bigotry or hatred. It seems I was right. But even so, the amount of ignored evidence is pretty astonishing.
Amazing, the level of denial and lying you take things to. Here is my asking you YET AGAIN, just a few days ago, and your inevitable non-response:

Just noticed this, and I've asked you about it before. How often is this a problem? Are there multiple men at once? Are they harrassing anybody? Has it noticably increased recently? Does it tend to be in certain areas (theater, clubs), or all over? Not looking for actual numbers, just your experience, because what you describe is not consistent with what I'm seeing.

Does it matter? Men who go into women's designated spaces, knowing that they are not permitted to be there, are already transgressing our boundaries. The acceptable number is none.

Seriously, olive branch extended. I'm trying to get a handle on our relative perspectives.

What problem did they pose before? What did they do? Do you mean it increased in visibility or actual danger?

The last, of course, you ignored yet again, as you did over and over and over.

ETA: you do make a fair point about missing some of your posts, though. Like a lot of posters, I have 'new posts on a subscibed thread' turned off on alerts, because it was making too long an alert list. Sometimes, especially when a thread is moving fast, I will miss posts, long or not. If you could wrap your head around the intellectual challenge of addressing a post (I know, you find it difficult), not as many would be missed. So if you did actually answer me at some point in the past, I apologize for missing it. If it was addressed, doubly so, but I doubt there were many if any of those.
 
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This wasn't a broccoli-headed clown pulling a prank for TikTok. This was an act of vandalism targeted at a group of people he didn't like.

You keep trying to downplay the aggression, and dismiss the victims.


It was literally vandalism targeting a group of women.
It was petty vandalism, and you are lying to say I dismiss the victims. It was the kind of petty vandalism you would see in any protest. The activist was showing pretty run-of-the mill protest disruption, and it hardly rises to the level of pervy horror.

And as I said, he should have been arrested, and not 'de-arrested'. But if that's what you have to scrape to for demonizing the dangerous pervs, you seem to be running out of credible ammo fast.
Anything other than what it actually was, seems to be your motto.
And what was it again? A decades old unsourced and unverifiable screenshot describing something that is mechanically implausible, making it sound like some tranny basher made it up. But even if real, it shows a brief exchange between three people who I'm guessing didn't actually try what they were playing at. Hardly a big accomplishment to find a couple freaks posting in the big bad internet from decades back, but very dishonest to act like this is a thing.
 
That's a lie. I wish you wouldn't lie so much.

It was petty vandalism, and you are lying to say I dismiss the victims.

Everyone here is a liar except you I guess. Do you understand the term "projection"?

Yes, when you focus on a hostile protest, you will see the worst of the worst behaviors. We can do that with any politically charged issue, and declare the behavior we see as representative of day to day interactions.
Yeah. Those Nazis sure got a bad press. I mean, everyone always focuses on the bad things they did; the invasions of neighbouring countries, the thefts of millions of dollars worth of private art and treasures, the wiping out of entire villages for collaboration, the murder of 6 million Jews..... but those things are not really "representative of day to day interactions", and we only see the "the worst of the worst behaviors". We lose sight of all the good things they did such as a booming economy, full employment, large-scale construction of highways, and animal rights and wildlife conservation laws.

And, of course, their leader discouraged smoking, was a non-smoker himself, and a moderately talented artist too!! A poor, misunderstood soul who only wanted a better future for his peole... amirite?

It's not really illuminating, and you know it.

What IS illuminating are the recent transgender protests in the wake of the UK Supreme Court's recent (correct) decision. They vandalised public buildings and edifices, private property, urinated in public areas, and threatened critics with violence and death. There are roughly 260,000 transgender people in the UK.... 25,000 turned out at the protest. Almost 10% is a huge turnout, and as we know, every protester who bothers to turn up to a protest represents a much larger overall group of people who agree with them. 10% of a subset of the general population is a big enough turnout to convince me that the vast majority of those 260,000 fully endorse their behaviour.

Yes, these people showed us all EXACTLY who they really are!
 
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Yes, when you focus on a hostile protest, you will see the worst of the worst behaviors. We can do that with any politically charged issue, and declare the behavior we see as representative of day to day interactions. It's not really illuminating, and you know it.

That's a lie. I wish you wouldn't lie so much. Not only did I never say it was justified, I said specifically that it was not.

<snipped stream of insults>

We make rules and laws to restrain the worst behaviours. That's kind of the point.

And I wish you wouldn't rewrite history so much. Before you realised just how wrong you had been, your initial reaction was to dig for any "dirt" you could find about Sister Salon (insultingly calling them "Sista") and take the fact that Brighton Pride (hardly an unbiassed source in this matter) had denied them a presence at the Pride parade as evidence that they were "a vocal anti-trans group", which you then embellished by calling them Nazis. Precisely as justification for the fire alarm being set off. Own it.
 

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