Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 32

[Vixen]

Saw this interesting post on Twitter/X.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1923367188138004656

Compare and contrast with that of AK's.

 

[Disbelief]

Saw this interesting post on Twitter/X.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1923367188138004656

Compare and contrast with that of AK's.


View attachment 60864

Another post devoid of evidence.

 

[Numbers]

SpitfireIX, I don't believe you have presented the full implications of your statements.

What are the general consequences if a police officer is not liable for an unlawful or illegal act because he or she can claim incompetence or lack of knowledge of the law as a defense?

Could a civilian claim the same defense? Suppose one or more high school students sexually assault a drunken unconscious girl. If the high school students claim they had no knowledge that they were committing a criminal offense, does that mean that their act was not a crime, but rather incompetence, or otherwise not a crime?

I was a little short on time when I wrote the above. There are (many?) actual cases of (alleged) sexual assault on unconscious or incapacitated females (often minors); in some cases, the accused are also minors, and in some cases, the accused had been drinking alcoholic beverages before or during the (alleged) incident.

Here's one example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steubenville_High_School_rape_caseme

Other cases are listed in the above-cited reference.

Judges in the US - or at least in the state of Illinois - can be removed from office for violations of the law in a trial; this removal concerned favoritism to an alleged rapist:

A judge was removed from office years after he found an 18-year-old guilty of sexual assault, reversed himself to keep the defendant from having to serve a mandatory prison sentence, and then “lied under oath on multiple occasions” when pressed about his reasoning, the Illinois Courts Commission said.

Source: https://lawandcrime.com/high-profil...t-bad-faith-reversal-in-grad-party-rape-case/

In a California case, a judge was recalled from office (voted out by the public) after giving a young male athlete a light sentence for sexually assaulting an incapacitated female:

The beginning of the end for the first California judge recalled since 1932 began almost exactly two years ago, when Santa Clara County Judge Aaron Persky sentenced a former Stanford swimmer convicted of sexual assault to six months in jail instead of a long prison term. ....

Within days, a politically connected Stanford law professor who was friends with the victim launched a campaign to recall the judge.
On Tuesday, Santa Clara County voters agreed and recalled the judge from office after his nearly 15-year career on the bench.

Source: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation...ed-brock-turner-to-six-months-for-sex-assault

In contrast, in the Knox-Sollecito case, we see that a number of the Italian judges invented false narratives and violated Italian procedural law to protect the police and prosecutor and the judges suffered no consequences. One example: Judge Massei, on hearing Knox's statements credibly alleging police misconduct during the interrogation, was obligated to order an independent investigation of the allegations. Instead, he directed Mignini to investigate; Mignini then charged Knox with calunnia against the police.

If my point seems somewhat obscure, here are some thoughts:

1. The alleged criminals had often been drinking alcohol before or during the incidents, and could therefore be said to be "incompetent".
2. The alleged criminals could probably honestly say that they didn't know the details of the law(s) that made their alleged actions criminal.
3. The alleged criminals could probably honestly say that their behavior was acceptable behavior among (some of) their (male/athlete) peers.

I believe that the Italian police and prosecutors who violated procedural and/or criminal law to obtain their "truth" (confirm their false assumptions and attempt to close the case before even obtaining the forensic results) would have similar defenses. I don't think it makes sense to agree to those defenses for either the police and prosecutors or the persons who (allegedly*) sexually assaulted incapacitated females.

* In some cases, there is video evidence of the alleged criminal acts. In contrast, the Italian police and prosecutor violated procedural law by not documenting the interrogations of Knox and Sollecito, suggesting the intent, even prior to the interrogations, of violating laws.

 

[Stacyhs]

Saw this interesting post on Twitter/X.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1923367188138004656

Compare and contrast with that of AK's.


View attachment 60864

I think Vixen may be on to something here! Notice Mignini's "facial hemisphere asymmetry. The eye and the mouth on one side of the face is slightly smiling while on the other side of the face, the eyes is dark and the mouth is straight. You can see this if you put your hand over one side of the face and then the other side of the face in images of dark personalities. Sometimes it is faint but it is there." Mignini is slightly smiling on his right side but his mouth is straight on his left side.



What next? "I can see guilt in her eyes!"

 

[Stacyhs]

Vixen, I'd still like to know exactly HOW Filomena could know when and if Meredith locked her door considering she was gone most of the time either at work or at her boyfriend's. A camera in the hallway? An alert on her phone whenever Meredith's door was locked? Did she get a tingly feeling?

 

[Numbers]

I think Vixen may be on to something here!

View attachment 60868

What next? "I can see guilt in her eyes!"

For those who would prefer some rationality:

We are all born with faces that are asymmetrical, though some are affected more than others. While studies have shown that most people are attracted to those with the most symmetrical faces, many celebrities and models renowned for their beauty have asymmetrical faces. In fact, it could be argued that it’s those very facial variations that make them unique and attractive to others! Facial asymmetry occurs for a variety of reasons, such as a stroke, facial injuries like a broken nose, stressors during development or simple genetics. Most often, however, asymmetry is caused by a combination of factors, including muscle size and activity, underlying subcutaneous volume and skeletal shape, and variations in facial lengths.

Source: https://www.nvcofny.com/eye-care/the-straight-truth-about-facial-asymmetry/

 

[Myriad]

I think Vixen may be on to something here!

View attachment 60868

"Satan has possessed my left side. At all costs I must destroy the cultists responsible!"

 

[Vixen]

Conclusion: Not only does Italy have a relatively large number of ECHR cases finding violations of the Convention - including cases of unfair trials, but also other types of unfair practices by the authorities and government, but it is slower than many other democracies in Western Europe in addressing its mistakes or misconduct.

There's another concept that helps in understanding the Knox - Sollecito case: a model of police and prosecution behavior in their approach to solving crimes. This can be considered a kind of sociological approach to understanding such cases of miscarriage of justice.

In one model, the police and prosecutor act as detectives or scientists: assembling facts, forming hypotheses, testing hypotheses against the facts, and choosing a hypothesis that is supported by all the facts and not contradicted by any fact, to solve the case.

In another model, the police and prosecutor act as predators seeking a meal, which of course requires their selection of at least one prey animal. In selecting the prey animal(s) to target, a balance of energy and risk must be considered (even if, for actual predators, this may be "instinctive"): the predator seeks to expend a minimum of energy to gain a relative maximum of energy through capturing and consuming the prey, while also avoiding injury that can result even from some relatively weak prey or a competing predator. (For example, an eagle will flee from the harassment of crows or even red-winged blackbirds.) The predator seeks out the convenient or vulnerable prey, one relatively isolated and not one protected by a surrounding herd or perhaps even a single aggressive defender.

Carrying over this model to the Knox - Sollecito case, it's clear that Knox was vulnerable in several ways - a young foreign student not familiar with Italian culture, not fluent in Italian, far from older and more experienced advisors, lacking a lawyer, highly trusting and naive, and with an alibi dependent on a new boyfriend who was a native Italian but also trusting, naive, and lacking a lawyer. In this prey-predator model, the police and prosecutor select the vulnerable and convenient prey (suspect) and then go on to create facts - one or more coerced statements from the suspects - that allow the arrest of the suspect under cover of law (that is equivalent to the capture of the prey by the predator in the model). The next step is to secure the conviction of the suspect (that is equivalent to the killing and eating of the prey by the predator in the model). To do that, the facts of case must be applied (interpreted or misinterpreted), and if necessary, fabricated or suppressed, to fit the suspect to the crime. In the Knox - Sollecito case, we observe that the judicial system itself aided this approach, by selective application or non-application of procedural laws and, in some cases, careful attention to what evidence was allowed or not allowed into the trial, or if allowed in, not included in the evaluation of the facts. In other situations in the trials, the judge, employing inquisitional methodology, creates scenarios assuming guilt from real or imagined facts, to assist the prosecution.

Many readers here may feel uncomfortable with the predator-prey model; they may insist that the detective-scientist model was a better description, but sadly some rogue police and/or prosecutor and/or judges corrupted the case to lead to a miscarriage of justice, or that there were a series of mistakes and misunderstandings and bad translations from one language to another. Those readers are entitled to their opinions. But if one examines how many instances of "mistakes" and violations of procedural law happened, and continued up to and including the recent re-conviction of Knox for calunnia (and one should read the motivation reports) in the face of the ECHR final judgment Knox v. Italy, one may have a view that the predator-prey model is more applicable.

I had Nikolaas Tinbergen's Study of Instinct on my reading list; instinct is borne out of many hundreds of thousands of years of evolution; for example, a herring gull recognises other herring gulls by a black spot under their beak, on their neck. Likewise, predators hunt, stalk and capture prey through animal instinct; a vulture has evolved an incredibly keen eyesight and acute sense of smell and thus can locate carrion at ten paces, or should I say ten flaps of the wing. Human predatory behaviour normally refers to a calculated targetting of prey, which needs little elaborating as to how they operate. In the case of a prosecutor, he or she only becomes involved in a case once the crime has been committed. As a prosecutor, you will have had to sit numerous public exams to qualify, not to mention work experience to become proficient enough to be promoted to public prosecutor of an entire region. In Italy, prosecutors generally have a whole caseload of crimes. In the Kercher murder, Mignini shelved all of his other cases to concentrate on this one. He saw the body. He saw Mez' open staring eyes. The last thing she would have seen was her killer's cruel face, as her life slowly expired over the course of at least ten minutes. In the Questura the same day the body was found, AK shouted, of course she ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ suffered, she had her throat slit!

Mignini acting as prosecutor on behalf of the Italian State for the victim, Meredith Kercher, made it his duty to bring the perpetrator/s to justice. That is his job. Nothing to do with being the predator of "Knox [who] was vulnerable in several ways - a young foreign student not familiar with Italian culture, not fluent in Italian, far from older and more experienced advisors, lacking a lawyer, highly trusting and naive, and with an alibi dependent on a new boyfriend who was a native Italian but also trusting, naive, and lacking a lawyer'. This came after the crime.

A famous FBI profiler, the name escapes me - said the key to solving a crime is to analyse what happened immediately before the crime and then also, immediately after. So, immediately before the crime:

• Knox spent Halloween mostly alone wandering the streets looking for company
• AK had texted Mez several times to try to engage with her over Halloween.
• Mez gave her the cold shoulder and went off with her friends, snubbing KA's texts.
• Sollecito, a Roman Catholic, not used to the same US enthusiasm for Halloween was busy swotting for exams.
• Next day, Mez was off out yet again to see some friends. AK and RS noted she still had vampire paint in her chin.
• AK and RS had a mysterious two or thee hour break in town which they kept quiet about.
• AK doesn't mention this trip into town in her Prison Dairy where she lists what she did 1 Nov 2007.
• In his early police interview when asked by the police why they went into town, RS was evasive and said they needed provisions.
• When police asked him for the receipts, RS changed his story and said once they reached the Old Town they realised they didn't need any provisions after all.
• Mignini believes they were probably looking for drugs/ and were drugged (both said after the murder they would never take drugs again).
• Not needing to go into work and with AK responding to Patrick from Grimana Square, placing her there, switched off her phone about 20 mins later at 20:45 and RS likewise shortly after.
• The pair appeared to be stalking Mez, waiting for her to return to the cottage (~ predatory behaviour).
• Kokomani believes he saw three of them - he knew Guede from before - hanging around near the bin area lying in wait and brandishing a knife.
• Claims he heard a foreign (English?) voice shouting and sounds of a thud coming from the cottage.
• Two neighbours heard a harrowing scream.
• The next morning, the postal police found AK and RS at 12:30 hanging around at the scene, surprised to see him.
• AK didn't turn her phone back on until 12:07, after which she quickly rang each of Mex' phones.
• She didn't tell Filomena her window was smashed until Filomena rang her back some 25mins later.
• RS rang his sister for advice and then the Carabinieri at circa 12;54.
• AK then rang her mother in the US just before the door was kicked down.
• AK and RS stood well back when the door was broken down.
• Whilst everyone was deeply upset, AK was seen to be unmoved.
• AK and RS began showing great affection towards each other but divorced from the grief everyone else was going through.
• AK had a great emotional breakdown when she realised police could place her in Grimana Piazza.
• Having switched off her phone, she realised she could be located immediately prior to that act.
• She had deleted Lumumba's message to her not to come in.
• She intended to conceal she had a free evening.
• The pair fixed it to make out hey were watching a film but apart from an auto download, there was no other activity on the computer in RS' apartment.
• RS said he had been on the computer all evening. His internet provider said he had not at all.
• RS had a 'flood' in his apartment which he initially denied and tried to brush off as minor.
• AK was seen buying cleaning fluids early next morning and turning out of the door of the shop in the direction of the cottage.
• The pair played Nirvana and Fight Club at about 5:00am and RS took a message from his dad at abut 6:00am, despite claiming he slept until 10:00.
• RS dismantled the U-bend of his sink. He claims it fell off of its own accord.
• He had a couple off large bottles of ACE bleach which his cleaner said she never used.
• Police found a bucketful of latex gloves.
• When police entered his apartment they noticed a 'strong smell of bleach'.
• Knox had changed into a white skirt. Said she had a shower to blow dry her hair but it looked unwashed.
• The pair looked utterly exhausted.

So now you know why police might have found the pair's behaviour highly suspicious and it was nothing to do with their being predators and 'a vulnerable young person from abroad' their prey. Scientists identified the person who plunged the knife into Mez' neck as being Knox, from DNA. The charge was 'Aggravated' murder due to the extremely cruel method of death and the rape. The body was covered by a duvet indicating someone other than a random burglar.


.

 

[Vixen]

That's true. As I said at the time and have said again since, I was giving an example of how harshly history judges malicious false accusers like Newton, Stoughton, Mignini, and Stefanoni. Prosecuting the innocent is terrible, and while it might sometimes be justified as an inevitable occasional consequence of enforcing laws, when the prosecutors throw away reason, common sense, propriety, responsibility, duty, and established procedure in the process, it becomes monstrous.

I should also mention, now that it's come up again, the comparable consequences for malignant prosecutors' public apologists like Cotton Mather. Mather was actually a well-educated and sophisticated thinker for the time, but he was arrogantly certain about the guilt of the accused in the New England witchcraft panic (despite the cautions of his wiser father) so, 330-odd years later, 99% of those who recognize his name immediately think of him as a period villain. He's even a literal comic book villain!

But Vixen did astutely point out another aspect of the analogy: not female defendants (both cases had both male and female innocent defendants as has been pointed out) but the historically documented fact that both prosecutions were based on lunatic conspiracy theories about Satanic rites. In that regard, the prosecution of Knox and Sollecito was part of a well-established tradition!

This case really has nothing to do with the Witch Trials of the 17th Century. We had Witch Trials in the Ålands, when six women were executed for supposedly taking part in a Witch's Sabbath. The prosecutor here was the new governor, Nils Psilander, some guy who had studied witchcraft demonology in Dorpat. But apart from that, almost all of Finland's practitioners of the dark arts were men, i,e., wizards. But usually the practice of 'witch hunting' was to do with trying to enforce Christianity onto persons or communities perceived to be resistant to the legal requirement to conform. Thus some 22 Laplander men were executed because they refused - understandably - to give up their cultural tradition of yoiking (made illegal) and shamanism.

But this has absolutely nothing in common with a person being made a suspect of murder in the Perugia case. Yes, Italy's old towns are a hotbed of masonry and whispers of mafia influence. Mignini was right to see a connection to Halloween. given Sollecito's anime manga comic depicting the vampire slaying of an ancient vampire. The cartoon depicting the slain vampire lying in the same position as Mez surrounded by three slayers. This sounds outrageous to you and this is why coldblooded evil killers get away with it because people refuse to believe they could be capable of it. It this had happened in America, AK would be in the same high security block as Jody Arias and Sollecito, with the BKT killer.



.

 

[Stacyhs]

For those who would prefer some rationality:


Source: https://www.nvcofny.com/eye-care/the-straight-truth-about-facial-asymmetry/

I had Nikolaas Tinbergen's Study of Instinct on m reading list; instinct is borne out of many hundreds of thousands of years of evolution; for example, a herring gull recognises other herring gulls by a black spot under their beak, on their neck. Likewise, predators hunt, stalk and capture prey through animal instinct; a vulture has evolved an incredibly keen eyesight and acute sense of smell and thus can locate carrion at ten paces, or should I say ten flaps of the wing. Human predatory behaviour normally refers to a calculated targetting of prey, which needs little elaborating as to how they operate. In the case of a prosecutor, he or she only becomes involved in a case once the crime has been committed. As a prosecuotr, you will have had to sit numerous public exams to qualify, not to mention work experience to become proficient enough to be promoted to public prosecutor of an entire region. In Italy, prosecutors generally have a whole caseload of crimes. In the Kercher murder, Mignini shelved all of his other cases to concentrate on this one. He saw the body. He saw Mez' open staring eyes. The last thing she would have seen was her killer's cruel face, as her life slowly expired over the course of at least ten minutes. In the Questura the same day the body was found, AK shouted, of course she ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ suffered, she had he throat slit!

Mignini acting as prosecutor on behalf of the Italian State for the victim, Meredith Kercher, made it his duty to bring the perpetrator/s to justice. That is his job. Nothing to do with being the predator of "Knox [who] was vulnerable in several ways - a young foreign student not familiar with Italian culture, not fluent in Italian, far from older and more experienced advisors, lacking a lawyer, highly trusting and naive, and with an alibi dependent on a new boyfriend who was a native Italian but also trusting, naive, and lacking a lawyer. This came after the crime.

A famous FBI profiler, the name escapes me - said the key to solving a crime is to analyse what happened immediately before the crime and then also, immediately after. So, immediately before the crime:

• Knox spent Halloween mostly alone wandering the streets looking for company
• AK had texted Mez several times to try to engage with her over Halloween.
• Mez gave her the cold shoulder and went off with her friends, snubbing KA's texts.
• Sollecito, a Roman Catholic, not used to the same US enthusiasm for Halloween was busy swotting for exams.
• Next day, Mez was off out yet again to see some friends. AK and RS noted she still had vampire pint in her chin.
• AK and RS had a mysterious two or thee hour break in town which they kept quiet about.
• AK doesn't mention this trip into town in her Prison Dairy where she lists what she did 1 Nov 2007.
• In his early police interview when asked by the police why they went into town, RS was evasive and said they needed provisions.
• When police asked him for the receipt, RS changed his story and said once they reached the Old Town they realised they didn't need any provisions after all.
• Mignini believes they were probably looking for drugs/ and were drugged (both said after the murder they would never take drugs again).
• Not needing to go into work and with AK responding to Patrick from Grimana Square, placing her there, switched off her phone about 20 mins later at 20:45 and RS likewise shortly after.
• The pair appeared to be stalking Mez, waiting for her to return to the cottage (~ predatory behaviour).
• Kokomani believes he saw three of them - he knew Guede from before - hanging around near the bin area lying in wait and brandishing a knife.
• Claims he heard a foreign )English?) voice shouting and sounds of a thud coming from the cottage.
• Two neighbours heard a harrowing scream.
• The next morning, the postal police found AK and RS at 12:30 hanging around at the scene, surprised to see him.
• AK didn't turn her phone back on until 12:07, after which she quickly rang each of Mex' phones.
• She didn't tell Filomena her window was smashed until Filomena rang her back some 25mins later.
• RS rang his sister for advice and then the Carabinieri at circa 12;54.
• AK then rang her mother in the US just before the door was kicked down.
• AK and RS stood well back when the door was broken down.
• Whilst everyone was deeply upset, AK was seen to be unmoved.
• AK and RS began showing great affection towards each other but divorced from the grief everyone else was going through.
• AK had a great emotional breakdown when she realised police could place her in Grimana Piazza.
• Having switched off her phone, she realised she could be located immediately prior to that act.
• She had deleted Lumumba's message to her not to come in.
• She intended to conceal she had a free evening.
• The pair fixed it to make out hey were watching a film but aoaet from an auto download, there was no other activity on the coputer in RS' apartment.
• RS said he had been on the computer all evening. His internet provider said he had not at all,
• RS had a 'flood' in his apartment which he initially denied and tried to brush off as minor.
• AK was seen buying cleaning fluids early next morning and turning out of the door int he direction of the cottage.
• The pair played Nirvana and Fight Club at about 5:00am and RS took a message from his dad at abut 6:00 despite claiming he slept until 10:00.
• RS dismantled the U-bend of his sink. He claims it fell off of its own accord.
• He had a couple off large bottles of ACE bleach which his cleaner said she never used.
• Police found a bucketful of latex gloves.
• When police entered his apartment they noticed a 'strong smell of bleach'.
• Knox had changed into a white skirt. Said she had a shower to blow dry her hair but it looked unwashed.
• The pair looked utterly exhausted.

So now you know why police might have found the pair's behaviour highly suspicious and it was nothing to do with their being predators and 'a vulnerable young person from abroad' their prey. Scientists identified the person who lunged the knife into Mez' neck as being Knox, from DNA. The charge was 'Aggravated' murder due to the extremely cruel method of death and the rape. The body was covered by a duvet indicating someone other than a random burglar.


.

Yet another gish gallop of lies, half-truths, opinions, innuendo, and rubbish designed to redirect our attention. They're not even worth responding to.

 

[Myriad]

But this has absolutely nothing in common with a person being made a suspect of murder in the Perugia case. Yes, Italy's old towns are a hotbed of masonry and whispers of mafia influence. Mignini was right to see a connection to Halloween. given Sollecito's anime manga comic depicting the vampire slaying of an ancient vampire. The cartoon depicting the slain vampire lying in the same position as Mez surrounded by three slayers. This sounds outrageous to you and this is why coldblooded evil killers get away with it because people refuse to believe they could be capable of it. It this had happened in America, AK would be in the same high security block as Jody Arias and Sollecito, with the BKT killer.

Shockingly disrespectful of you to accuse Meredith Kercher of being an ancient vampire!

 

[Vixen]

Shockingly disrespectful of you to accuse Meredith Kercher of being an ancient vampire!

That was the nature of RS' thrill kill fantasy. Wanted 'extreme experiences'. Objectifying the victim means they can do it without seeing her as a person.

Knox had a history of hazing her colleagues. Staged burglaries for a laugh. Confronted frightened housemate wearing a sinister ski mask. Terrified neighbours with an out of control party. Wrote short stories in which 'chicks' were raped.



.

 

[SpitfireIX]

SpitfireIX, I don't believe you have presented the full implications of your statements.

What are the general consequences if a police officer is not liable for an unlawful or illegal act because he or she can claim incompetence or lack of knowledge of the law as a defense?

I didn't intend to imply that it should necessarily be allowed as a defense, although it might in some cases, such as when the officer can demonstrate that he or she was improperly trained.

Further, I think you may be implying that an unlawful act must always be malicious. I would argue that that is not necessarily so, especially in the case of police officers or other professionals who have to know a lot about the law, where it could be due to, again, improper training, other systemic failures, or simple ignorance. That's not to say that I believe no malicious illegal acts were committed against Amanda and Raffaele (and Patrick); some clearly were.

There's also the issue of how blame is assigned; for example, whose fault is it that Amanda wasn't initially provided with a lawyer? (Mignini was clearly at fault later for telling her that it would look bad if she asked for one, but he wasn't present during the initial interrogation.) And is there a specific criminal penalty in Italy for that?

Could a civilian claim the same defense? Suppose one or more high school students sexually assault a drunken unconscious girl. If the high school students claim they had no knowledge that they were committing a criminal offense, does that mean that their act was not a crime, but rather incompetence, or otherwise not a crime?

No, and this isn't a good example. A better example would be a speed trap, where there may be a genuine question as to whether the accused should have reasonably known that he or she was breaking the law.

 

[Myriad]

That was the nature of RS' thrill kill fantasy. Wanted 'extreme experiences'. Objectifying the victim means they can do it without seeing her as a person.

We were talking about Mignini. You said Mignini thought there was a connection between the murder and a page of a manga in which an ancient vampire was killed. Did Mignini think MK was an ancient vampire? You also said Mignini was right in thinking there was a connection. Do you also think MK was an ancient vampire? That's the only way there could be a connection.

 

[AmyStrange]

That was the nature of RS' thrill kill fantasy. Wanted 'extreme experiences'. Objectifying the victim means they can do it without seeing her as a person.

Knox had a history of hazing her colleagues. Staged burglaries for a laugh. Confronted frightened housemate wearing a sinister ski mask. Terrified neighbours [sic] with an out of control [sic] party. Wrote short stories in which 'chicks' were raped.

With that kind of ridiculous logic, Stephen King, Dean Koontz, Anne Rice etc. must ALL be serial killers.


-

 

[Numbers]

I didn't intend to imply that it should necessarily be allowed as a defense, although it might in some cases, such as when the officer can demonstrate that he or she was improperly trained.

Further, I think you may be implying that an unlawful act must always be malicious. I would argue that that is not necessarily so, especially in the case of police officers or other professionals who have to know a lot about the law, where it could be due to, again, improper training, other systemic failures, or simple ignorance. That's not to say that I believe no malicious illegal acts were committed against Amanda and Raffaele (and Patrick); some clearly were.

There's also the issue of how blame is assigned; for example, whose fault is it that Amanda wasn't initially provided with a lawyer? (Mignini was clearly at fault later for telling her that it would look bad if she asked for one, but he wasn't present during the initial interrogation.) And is there a specific criminal penalty in Italy for that?


No, and this isn't a good example. A better example would be a speed trap, where there may be a genuine question as to whether the accused should have reasonably known that he or she was breaking the law.

It's not my intent to imply that an unlawful act (violation of procedure) is necessarily malicious. I believe that many such acts are not intended as malicious, even when done intentionally. However, it is the responsibility of the state (Italy, in this case) to be sure that the police, prosecutors, and judges are trained, and this training must achieve a high standard of compliance with procedural law, otherwise, miscarriages of justice are likely.

The assignment of blame for Knox being denied a lawyer is not necessarily relevant, because, to my knowledge, there is no criminal law in Italy for that violation of procedural law. The remedy for the denial of a lawyer is to throw out (court declares inadmissible) the alleged evidence (incriminating statements) gathered when there was no presence of the lawyer. Obviously, both the police and Mignini were responsible for Knox being denied a lawyer during the interrogations and the period immediately after them. Whether the police denied Knox a lawyer on Mignini's instructions is unknown to the public; of course, he was the supervisor of the police team for the investigation.

At least in US law, it is assumed that the person accused knows the law, unless there is some good reason otherwise. Thus, if one is accused of trespassing on US government property, if there were no signs and perhaps fences in relevant places to warn someone, an accusation of trespassing would very likely be dismissed by a court. If speed limit signs were not posted in relevant places, then your example could be a good one.

However, for the Knox case, the alleged criminal violations under Italian law would have included the use of threats (the alleged threats of prison and not being allowed to see her mother) and violence (the alleged hits on her head) to obtain statements, filing a false official document (possibly based on the truncated wording quoting Knox's text message to Lumumba that Mignini used in the arrest document), and calunnia (falsely accusing someone, known to be innocent, of a crime). I'm basing these charges on the Boninsegna MR (as I recall it) - note that in order to charge Knox with calunnia against the police and Mignini, an Italian prosecutor needed to identify in Knox's testimony before the Massei court the crimes that she was implicitly accusing the police and Mignini of committing.

If there's a question as to why the police knew Knox to be innocent, that is the kernel of the matter. Knox was known to be innocent by the police and Mignini during the interrogation because she had not been finally proven guilty by an Italian court. That's based on the Italian Constitution and Italian procedural law. Those thinking that the police and Mignini, because they may sincerely have strongly believed Knox to be guilty could not have committed calunnia against (that is, framed) Knox simply don't accept or don't understand this principle of the presumption of innocence. If her statements during the interrogation were coerced - in violation of CPP Article 188 - then her statements cannot be used because they were gathered contrary to law (CPP Article 191). This would mean that the arrest document was false in that respect as well, another instance of the criminal act of filing a false official document as well as an act of calunnia.

 

[Numbers]

Why does the ECHR insist that Convention Article 6 implies that an accused person must have access to a lawyer from the time of the first questioning? The ECHR gives these reasons:

▪ Prevention of a miscarriage of justice and, above all, the fulfilment of the aims of Article 6, notably equality of arms between the investigating or prosecuting authorities and the accused;
▪ Counterweight to the vulnerability of suspects in police custody;
▪ Fundamental safeguard against coercion and ill-treatment of suspects by the police;
▪ Ensuring respect for the right of an accused not to incriminate him/herself and to remain silent, which can – just as the right of access to a lawyer as such – be guaranteed only if he or she is properly notified of these rights ... In this connection, immediate access to a lawyer able to provide information about procedural rights is likely to prevent unfairness arising from the lack of appropriate information on rights.

Source: https://ks.echr.coe.int/documents/d/echr-ks/access-to-a-lawyer

 

[TruthCalls]

That was the nature of RS' thrill kill fantasy. Wanted 'extreme experiences'. Objectifying the victim means they can do it without seeing her as a person.

Knox had a history of hazing her colleagues. Staged burglaries for a laugh. Confronted frightened housemate wearing a sinister ski mask. Terrified neighbours with an out of control party. Wrote short stories in which 'chicks' were raped.

What ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊. Amanda was never involved in a hazing. Amanda, along with a couple of roommates, played a prank on another roommate. Playing pranks on one another in college is about as common as smoking pot, and I would remind you, pranks are intended to make people laugh. She co-hosted a party that got too loud. She wrote ONE short story, and rape was hardly mentioned. The focus of the story was one brother holding the other accountable because he had raped someone. It was a positive moral story.

Rather than writing this crap that serves no purpose, why don't you answer some of the questions you've been avoiding, such as;

• How did Filomena know Meredith never locked her door?
• Explain how you can claim "they were technically not 'exonerated'"
• What is your evidence that Amelie was downloaded in the end of October?

 

[Numbers]

Why does the ECHR insist that Convention Article 6 implies that an accused person must have access to a lawyer from the time of the first questioning? The ECHR gives these reasons:


Source: https://ks.echr.coe.int/documents/d/echr-ks/access-to-a-lawyer

How do the above reasons for having a defense lawyer present during questioning compare to Knox's situation during the interrogation? Did the Italian police and prosecutor (Mignini) deny Knox a lawyer for the purpose of defeating the aims of the ECHR for insisting that a defense lawyer must be present from the first questioning?

Note also that had the police and prosecutor identified Knox as a suspect prior to the questioning of the interrogation, she would have been entitled to the presence of a defense lawyer during the questioning (CPP Article 364, paragraphs 1 - 4). Furthermore, the questioning could only be carried out lawfully if the rules for questioning explained in CPP Article 64 were followed. These rules include the following paragraphs (summarized here):

1. the suspected person participates freely in the questioning [meaning without coercion and with only necessary security measures];

2. the requirements of CPP Article 188 apply, that is, methods or techniques that can influence the freedom of self-determination or alter the ability to recall and evaluate the facts shall not be used;

3. Before the questioning begins, the person shall be warned:
a) her statements can always be used against her,
b) she has the right to silence,
c) if she makes any statement on facts concerning the liability of others, she will become a witness in relation to those facts [possibly a warning against calunnia];

3-bis. If the provisions of paragraph 3, subparagraphs a) and b) are not fulfilled, the statements made by the person questioned shall not be used. If the warning of paragraph 3, subparagraph c) is not given, the statements made regarding the liability of others shall not be used, and the person shall not be a witness in relation to those facts.

So what did the police and prosecutor obtain by denying a lawyer for Knox and questioning her as a witness - allowing them to avoid the warnings of paragraph 3. With no lawyer for Knox present, there was no advocate to protect her defense rights, such as the right to remain silent and to make clear to her that the police suspected her of a serious crime. Although neither a witness nor a suspect may be lawfully coerced during questioning, the absence of a lawyer for Knox allowed the police, according to Knox's statement, to coerce her with threats and violence (hits on the head). The absence of a bilingual lawyer also allowed for the interpreter's suggestive subterfuge of discussing her own (alleged) traumatic amnesia, and the interpreter's failure to help Knox present her version of the facts.

Thus, it seems certain to me that the police and prosecutor Mignini intended to conduct the interrogation of their chosen suspect, Knox, without a lawyer for the purpose of obtaining, even by means of coercion and the denial of defense rights, an incriminating statement from her. Recall also that according to Sollecito's account in his book Honor Bound, his interrogation for which he had been summoned to the police station, began prior to that of Knox and focused on inducing or coercing him to abandon her alibi - that she had been with him at his apartment - at the relevant time.

Sources:

Page Expired

The Italian Code of Criminal Procedure: Critical essays and English translation, ed. M. Gialuz, L. Luparia, and F. Scarpa. Wolters Kluwer Italia (C) 2014

 

[Planigale]

But this has absolutely nothing in common with a person being made a suspect of murder in the Perugia case. Yes, Italy's old towns are a hotbed of masonry and whispers of mafia influence. Mignini was right to see a connection to Halloween. given Sollecito's anime manga comic depicting the vampire slaying of an ancient vampire. The cartoon depicting the slain vampire lying in the same position as Mez surrounded by three slayers. This sounds outrageous to you and this is why coldblooded evil killers get away with it because people refuse to believe they could be capable of it. It this had happened in America, AK would be in the same high security block as Jody Arias and Sollecito, with the BKT killer.
.

Remember the comic was unread, wrapped in its cellophane cover, the police unwrapped it (destroying its value), so one cannot claim that this in any way influenced Solicito or Knox, only the police. Also Solicito did not have a collection of manga, nor of vampire literature. (unlike many teen age girls of that era who would have had one or more of the many series of supernatural romance novels, videos, posters featuring dark brooding anti heroes e.g. Angel, Edward Cullen, Bill Complton, Lestrade or my own favourite Spike!)