Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Thermal]

You typed a single post that wasn't characterising me as all sorts of unpleasant words and putting more unpleasant words in my mouth, and I'm supposed to recognise that that's an olive branch? Try again.

You might want to glance back over our exchanges. I don't get nasty till I've been hit with both barrels. You might want to put a little thought into your role in this.

Now, what is your plan, in Thermal-world, for dealing with Adam Bryson when he walks into the women's toilets?

The same. Which part don't you understand? I'm sick.of hearing about how I'm the prime offender of rinse and repeat.

 

[Rolfe]

All of it. Explain it to me like I'm six. It's Thermal-world, your laws, your rules. You have Adam Bryson, a man whom you have said several times you would not permit to use women-only facilities. He's walking in there now. What should happen?

 

[Thermal]

OK. So then you agree that the status quo cannot hold.

So what next? If the status quo was what you considered the best option, but that option isn't available, then what's the best available option?

The one I've been stating is the one I am leaning toward. No new tranny bashing laws, and no penalties for women who object to a man in the women's room (no hate crime charges), and let us sort out what we find acceptable situationally.

Got a quiet transwoman minding her own business? Leave her be. Got a Bryson trying to slither in? Sound the alarm, but don't rely on the police to do anything. If you are being reasonable, there will probably be men nearby to enforce the social norm.

Eta: or other women. Simply having a spotlight on him will almost certainly be enough to convince him to seek less confrontational pasteurs.

 

[Thermal]

All of it. Explain it to me like I'm six. It's Thermal-world, your laws, your rules. You have Adam Bryson, a man whom you have said several times you would not permit to use women-only facilities. He's walking in there now. What should happen?

I literally just posted it again.

 

[Mashuna]

I don't think they are saying men are too icky to be around. I think they are saying it feels more normal to be around
other women in a restroom, rather than being the only one in a dress with four construction workers staring at you (or worse).

Has it occurred to you that they'd rather be welcomed into the ladies room because at a glance, they fit in better, and they find most women less hateful than the men they run across in the men's room? Serious question.

They're not around other women, they're men encroaching on a space for women.

Hateful men in the men's room is a problem, and one that should be addressed. I just don't think that shifting the problem onto women is a good way of doing so.

 

[Rolfe]

I literally just posted it again.

In that case, you won't have a problem linking to or quoting the relevant post.

ETA: Oh, I see, you posted something after I posted that.

Got a quiet transwoman minding her own business? Leave her be. Got a Bryson trying to slither in? Sound the alarm, but don't rely on the police to do anything. If you are being reasonable, there will probably be men nearby to enforce the social norm.

How do I distinguish Bryson from your "quiet transwoman minding [his] own business"? I don't know Bryson from, well, Adam.

 

[Thermal]

They're not around other women, they're men encroaching on a space for women.

Hateful men in the men's room is a problem, and one that should be addressed. I just don't think that shifting the problem onto women is a good way of doing so.

I don't think it is. No one is asking for the hateful men to have acess to the ladies room.

The problem is a transwoman doesn't see herself as a man, and feels just as uncomfortable as a bio woman standing in the middle of a line of urinals. That's literally it.

 

[Thermal]

In that case, you won't have a problem linking to or quoting the relevant post.

Jesus Christ, #8,083. I literally just posted it.

Eta: it's the one right above the post you are quoting right now

 

[Rolfe]

You posted your (completely inadequate) reply after the post you were referring to.

 

[Thermal]

How do I distinguish Bryson from your "quiet transwoman minding [his] own business"? I don't know Bryson from, well, Adam.

You've claimed to be quite the unassailable expert. You tell me.

Do they pee and wash their hands and leave? Doesn't sound like much of a problem to you. Does your imaginary Bryson (because he is in prison so is not even a real threat and when he gets out will likely drop the pretense) do anything else?

Eta: or are you asking what to do when caught off guard and face an unexpected threat? The same thing you would do now, or 40 years ago.

If you are in a multi occupant restroom, there are probably other people nearby who will react. And I think they would be on your side immediately, and I think Bryson would very quickly get treated to societal norming. That's why he wouldn't do so in the first place. He's smarter than you, and knows it's a losing proposition for him.

 

[Ziggurat]

Got a quiet transwoman minding her own business? Leave her be. Got a Bryson trying to slither in? Sound the alarm

I still don't know how you think you can tell the difference.

, but don't rely on the police to do anything. If you are being reasonable, there will probably be men nearby to enforce the social norm.

The social norm will not be enforced if even the potential for police support isn't there.

Eta: or other women. Simply having a spotlight on him will almost certainly be enough to convince him to seek less confrontational pasteurs.

I don't know what you base this faith on either. And I'm not sure why he would seek out 19th century French chemists.

 

[Rolfe]

You've claimed to be quite the unassailable expert. You tell me.

Do they pee and wash their hands and leave? Doesn't sound like much of a problem to you. Does your imaginary Bryson (because he is in prison so is not even a real threat and when he gets out will likely drop the pretense) do anything else?

You said Bryson ought not to be allowed to use the women's facilities. Now you're saying he should. It would all be fine, just leave him alone. Make up your mind.

He will not "drop the pretence". He was using his "Isla" identity to perv on female students doing a beauty course before he was sentenced. It's who he is and what he does.

The more we dig into Thermal-world, the more we find that we just have to let men do whatever the hell they like, and not attempt to prevent them.

 

[Ziggurat]

You've claimed to be quite the unassailable expert. You tell me.

Rolfe has claimed to be able to generally tell males from females. She has never claimed to be able to tell predatory males from non-predatory males. She has in fact been rather consistent in saying that she cannot. You have not alleged that she can.

 

[Thermal]

I still don't know how you think you can tell the difference.

If you genuinely can't, you genuinely don't have a problem.

The social norm will not be enforced if even the potential for police support isn't there.

Sound the alarm when I'm in earshot, or any of my buddies, getting gray in the beard or not. I'm still a long way from not stepping in sans police backup.

I don't know what you base this faith on either. And I'm not sure why he would seek out 19th century French chemists.

Functional illiteracy is a greater burden than I had assumed. I pictured it being blissful ignorance, but it turns our to be a lot of damage control.

 

[Rolfe]

I can tell men from women to a pretty high degree of accuracy. So can most people, although it has been shown that women are slightly better at this than men. (I can't necessarily tell males from females, I'm not that great when it's horses.)

Because it's not difficult to tell men from women with a low error rate, then maintaining women's spaces male-free is relatively straightforward.

1. You see a man. You know already that this is a man willing and indeed happy to transgress women's boundaries.
2. You say, you should not be here, please leave. (It's quite hard to avoid using words like "excuse me" and "please", even though they're not appropriate).
3(a). He leaves. All is well.
3(b). He refuses to leave.
4 (in the event of b). You contact the nearest member of staff at the venue, and explain the situation.
5. The staff member enters and requires him to leave.
6(a). He leaves. All is tolerably well.
6(b). He refuses to leave.
7 (in the event of b). It is now up to the staff member to deal with this situation.

This is how it worked. It was fine. Now Thermal tells us we mustn't do any of this, but must allow the transgressing man to remain there. Not acceptable.

 

[Thermal]

You said Bryson ought not to be allowed to use the women's facilities. Now you're saying he should. It would all be fine, just leave him alone. Make up your mind.

Oh would you stop. Rapists aren't allowed in either, or MLM salespeople, but some slither in anyway. You posed him trying, not me saying he's allowed. There's no perfect safeguard against ruulebreaking.

He will not "drop the pretence". He was using his "Isla" identity to perv on female students doing a beauty course before he was sentenced. It's who he is and what he does.

In a full public classroom situation. Not much opportunity to do anything more than a guy in sunglasses at the beach does.

The more we dig into Thermal-world, the more we find that we just have to let men do whatever the hell they like, and not attempt to prevent them.

Including pulling people out by the scruff of their ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ necks in any policy adaptation, yes. What's your plan? Y'all got work?

 

[Ziggurat]

If you genuinely can't, you genuinely don't have a problem.

Uh, no. Bryson being in the women's bathroom is a problem. This isn't equivalent to not being able to tell the difference between a transwoman who actually passes and a real woman.

Sound the alarm when I'm in earshot, or any of my buddies, getting gray in the beard or not. I'm still a long way from not stepping in sans police backup.

Even if stepping in will get you kicked out? If the trans-identified male calls upon the police and the police backs him up, will you and your buddies keep trying?

 

[Ziggurat]

There's no perfect safeguard against ruulebreaking.

That is true but irrelevant. It's not a reason to do away with imperfect safeguards.

 

[Rolfe]

I don't think it is. No one is asking for the hateful men to have acess to the ladies room.

The problem is a transwoman doesn't see herself as a man, and feels just as uncomfortable as a bio woman standing in the middle of a line of urinals. That's literally it.

You have suggested no mechanism whatsoever to prevent hateful men accessing the ladies' room. You have merely said that women should not challenge them if they do.

The problem is that the trans-identifying man is a man, irrespective of what he feels like, and is going to make a substantial proportion of women uncomfortable by his mere presence. You insist that women's discomfort doesn't matter and must be ignored, because the comfort of the man is more important. We see you.

He doesn't have to stand in the middle of a line of urinals if he doesn't want to. He can go into a cubicle, or he can use a separate single-occupancy facility.

 

[Rolfe]

Oh would you stop. Rapists aren't allowed in either, or MLM salespeople, but some slither in anyway. You posed him trying, not me saying he's allowed. There's no perfect safeguard against ruulebreaking.

A rule that carries no possible enforcement mechanism isn't a rule at all. It's a fig-leaf to cover your true belief that women's spaces should be accessible to any man who wants to go there, at any time, and women ought not to make any objection.