Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Rolfe]

Yes. I'm asking if something has changed which has pushed matters beyond reasonable tolerance.

I'll take your non-answer as meaning no, they're not a problem and never have been.

You can take what you like. They always were a problem. They're a bigger problem now.

 

[Thermal]

You can take what you like. They always were a problem. They're a bigger problem now.

Seriously, olive branch extended. I'm trying to get a handle on our relative perspectives.

What problem did they pose before? What did they do? Do you mean it increased in visibility or actual danger?

 

[Thermal]

I laugh at the idea that Rolfe, Emily and others posting on this thread insisting they can tell the biological sex of a person without checking their pants.

I have recently developed a friendship with a (girl?) named James. James identifies as a woman. Looks like a woman to me, but dresses like a man. Flat chested. Doesn't wear makeup that I can see. Has long flowing brown hair. Voice sounds to me like a woman. I can't tell if she's a tomboy or a guy who has transitioned to be a girl. James is attracted to women. Is she a butch lesbian? Or a straight man that identifies as a woman?

I genuinely don't know. And I absolutely don't believe that ANYONE could tell without asking, (which I think is impolite) or getting her to drop trou.

Have a beach outing, or a swim at the pool. Play basketball with skins versus shirts. I imagine with summer coming, it will sort itself out.

 

[Rolfe]

The one being consistently described and discussed.

I'll meet the discussion at whatever temperature others set it at, and I took multiple slaps from multiple posters before meeting with less reservation.

Can you dial down the tone policing and thread nannying? Watch how quickly I'm right on board. In fact, I just delivered a couple olive branches to Rolfe to try to back it off and move forward constructively, to yet again be met with ignoring and dismissal and Jesus Christ repeating the same things yet again, lying about my responses and alleged lack thereof. Dialing down apparently doesn't work with some posters here. Something about their motivations, I dunno.

That was an olive branch? You could have fooled me.

Let's try to put this even more simply. You have repeatedly said that Adam Bryson should not be permitted to use women-only facilities (when he finally gets out of jail). I agree. I want to know how, in Thermal-world, you propose to keep him out. Bear in mind that he will certainly not be looking like this when he enters.



He will be wearing a wig, arranged in such a way as to conceal the tattoos as much as possible. He will be wearing clothes a woman might plausibly wear. There will probably be makeup and possibly nail varnish involved.

But he's not permitted to use the women's facilities, in Thermal-world. What is your plan for keeping him out?

 

[Ziggurat]

I laugh at the idea that Rolfe, Emily and others posting on this thread insisting they can tell the biological sex of a person without checking their pants.

Most of the time people can. There are some exceptions, but not that many, and pointing to exceptions doesn't disprove the rule. The actual exceptions, the transwomen who can truly pass as women, aren't going to be the problem. They will be accepted under a policy of biological sex segregation because they will fool people about their sex. If Rolfe is none the wiser for their presence, why do you care that she was tricked? The transwomen who are not accepted under that policy are the ones who cannot pass. And they are the majority.

 

[Rolfe]

It's not ideal, but we don't live in an ideal world. The very few trans-identifying men who are not recognisable as men in real life a few feet away when you're interacting with them, if they choose to violate women's spaces, will get away with it. Let's concentrate on the rest of them.

 

[acbytesla]

Most of the time people can. There are some exceptions, but not that many, and pointing to exceptions doesn't disprove the rule. The actual exceptions, the transwomen who can truly pass as women, aren't going to be the problem. They will be accepted under a policy of biological sex segregation because they will fool people about their sex. If Rolfe is none the wiser for their presence, why do you care that she was tricked? The transwomen who are not accepted under that policy are the ones who cannot pass. And they are the majority.

There are a lot more exceptions than you think. I also live next door to the most masculine woman I've ever seen. Muscular, facial hair, deep voice and all woman. Probably could snap me in half.

 

[Thermal]

That was an olive branch? You could have fooled me.

Can you show a single word that wasn't polite or spoken in good faith?

What is your plan for keeping him out?

Same as I've repeatedly said. After all the repetitions, you're going to demand I repeat it again? Are you trying to give Ms Pixel more ammo to say I'm the worst offender at repeating, so you can all backslap each other?

 

[Ziggurat]

There are a lot more exceptions than you think.

Then Rolfe will be fooled more often than I think. So what? Do you think it's worse her to be fooled by a transwoman in the bathroom that's passing as a female than it is for her to have to put up with the presence of a transwoman she knows is male? It's like you think it's better if she's bothered than if she isn't. That's perverse.

 

[Ziggurat]

Same as I've repeatedly said.

"Status quo". Which is no plan at all, as the status quo is crumbling around us.

 

[Thermal]

"Status quo". Which is no plan at all, as the status quo is crumbling around us.

And what does that say about those traditional rules, do you think?

 

[Ziggurat]

And what does that say about those traditional rules, do you think?

That they require certain shared beliefs which are being lost. What do you think it says?

 

[Pixel42]

Why wouldn't they, if there was more than one transwoman in the ladies room?

Why do they, when there is at least one biological male in the men's room?

And you guys pee in front of each other?

There are stalls in the men's room as well. Transwomen refuse to pee in the men's room, so they obviously have a problem with peeing in a stall when there are biological men around. Even though they insist that women must do so, and can't seem to understand why they might have a problem with it.

They are demanding for themselves the very rights they are denying to biological females, even whilst insisting they be treated as if they are biological females. That's why I say their arguments are incoherent.

 

[theprestige]

*glances at the bar in the middle of Appleby's*

???

Children are allowed to be in the restaurant, but not sit in the bar area. It's an almost universal rule for such combined spaces.

And my point is that someone can be prohibited from a venue, without that prohibition stemming from hatred of that person.

For example: Men can be prohibited from women's restrooms, without that prohibition stemming from a hatred of men. There are millions of women in this country who love men to pieces, but don't want them in their public restrooms, and would never dream of vouching for their man to the other women in the restroom (who also love men).

 

[Rolfe]

Can you show a single word that wasn't polite or spoken in good faith?

Same as I've repeatedly said. After all the repetitions, you're going to demand I repeat it again? Are you trying to give Ms Pixel more ammo to say I'm the worst offender at repeating, so you can all backslap each other?

You typed a single post that wasn't characterising me as all sorts of unpleasant words and putting more unpleasant words in my mouth, and I'm supposed to recognise that that's an olive branch? Try again.

Now, what is your plan, in Thermal-world, for dealing with Adam Bryson when he walks into the women's toilets?

 

[acbytesla]

Then Rolfe will be fooled more often than I think. So what? Do you think it's worse her to be fooled by a transwoman in the bathroom that's passing as a female than it is for her to have to put up with the presence of a transwoman she knows is male? It's like you think it's better if she's bothered than if she isn't. That's perverse.

The point is she would absolutely believe that my neighbor who is a woman to be a man. I did. And here I have a new friend who looks like a woman, dresses like a man, has a man's name, and identifies as a woman. That's two opposite sides of the spectrum. Both could use the ladies restroom and any call to the authorities to deal with my neighbor would be a mistake and not calling about my new friend could also be a mistake. I don't know.

 

[Thermal]

That they require certain shared beliefs which are being lost. What do you think it says?

About the same.

 

[Ziggurat]

The point is she would absolutely believe that my neighbor who is a woman to be a man.

Would she? Even after she speaks? And how is it that you learned this neighbor was actually a woman?

Both could use the ladies restroom and any call to the authorities to deal with my neighbor would be a mistake

Perhaps. Seems a pretty rare case to me. Which bathroom does this neighbor prefer to use?

and not calling about my new friend could also be a mistake.

But it's a "mistake" that you have no reason to care about, and Rolfe wouldn't know about. So why is it a problem?

 

[Ziggurat]

About the same.

OK. So then you agree that the status quo cannot hold.

So what next? If the status quo was what you considered the best option, but that option isn't available, then what's the best available option?

 

[Thermal]

Why do they, when there is at least one biological male in the men's room?

I don't understand that. I'm saying that as far as I know, transwomen don't have a problem peeing "in front of" other transwomen, despite them both being bio males.

There are stalls in the men's room as well. Transwomen refuse to pee in the men's room,

Not true. They've been in the men's room when I was there, as nearly as I can tell, far more often than my wide and kids have encountered them combined. In fairness, Pacific Avenue in Atlantic City NJ is a red light district, and unusually colorful characters abound.

so they obviously have a problem with peeing in a stall when there are biological men around. Even though they insist that women must do so, and can't seem to understand why they might have a problem with it.

It is, very admittedly, a conflict or rights and comfort.

They are demanding for themselves the very rights they are denying to biological females, even whilst insisting they be treated as if they are biological females. That's why I say their arguments are incoherent.

I don't think they are saying men are too icky to be around. I think they are saying it feels more normal to be around other women in a restroom, rather than being the only one in a dress with four construction workers staring at you (or worse).

Has it occurred to you that they'd rather be welcomed into the ladies room because at a glance, they fit in better, and they find most women less hateful than the men they run across in the men's room? Serious question.