Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Thermal]

It's the percentage of the total male population that are pervs that's the problem.

That changes nothing about my criticism of the percentages.

The fact that almost all women have experienced some kind of unwanted sexual attention should give you an idea of how high that percentage is. Many women and girls can't even walk past a building site without being perved on. All most pervs seem to require is the opportunity, and a reasonable chance of getting away with it. Self ID gives them both.

Ok. So what does the data tell us about your hypothesized fear mongering? It's been mentioned several times. Nice formal studies and everything.

You guys keep warning us about how inevitable it is. I live in such a state, that has been open doors for years. Why do you suppose there are no reported instances of this increased perving? Not even informal ones on twitter. Why?

Because you guys think like imaginary bad guys, not like real ones. Real ones get no benefit here. If they take one step across that unlocked restroom door line, all eyes are on them. They have no advantage or opportunity. They have actually thrown a spotlight on themselves and their behavior, and it doesn't suit their ends.

 

[Thermal]

You say he's not a transwoman, but again, what exactly is the standard here? If you appeal to Potter Stewart again, I will take that as an admission that you don't actually have a standard. And without a standard, saying that Bryson isn't trans is merely special pleading.

Already answered, please consult your notes. Rinse and repeat is getting really dull.

Ah. Now so much of this makes sense. Now I get where your hostility to the pushback against trans activism comes from.

Again, you forgot to read the posts. I get there are a lot of them, but I have repeated this many times: I have only developed hostility to the anti-trans crew from very recently engaging in this thread. I was about 95% on your side at the start, with a small caveat to try to provide some window for sincere transwomen, as difficult as that is, even conceptually. I am not arguing pro-trans here; I am arguing against the revolting and/or foolish arguments presented by our anti-transers.

Your child isn't actually non-binary. They are merely non-conforming.

Your psychoanalytic evaluation gleaned from one sentence posted by the subject's father is... something.

 

[theprestige]

Much as I disagree with @Thermal about so much in this debate, I don't see a real problem with him using the term "sex change surgery". Yes, the term is a misnomer, but it's a decades-long established misnomer, he didn't come up with it. I'd prefer some other more accurate term (my personal favorite is "sex denial surgery"), but there isn't a generally accepted one yet. I will fault him for a lot, but not for using what was once standard terminology.

While this might seem reasonable at first glance, Thermal has previously argued that common usage has transformed restrooms from sex segregated spaces into gender segregated spaces, therefore depriving him (and us) of the option of simply upholding sex segregation as a solution there. I'm not inclined to open the door to similar nonsense from him regarding trans-affirming medicine.

 

[theprestige]

I remember people saying this about keeping the gays out; it wasn't particularly persuasive at the time.

Not everyone needs to be deployable at all times; it's okay for female soldiers to become pregnant, for example. That aside, if the only accommodation an individual requires is a bottle of pills

That's not all a trans-affirming soldier requires, though. They also require preferred pronouns, and the entitlement to override sex segregation whenever they want, for example.

Further, the "bottle of pills" and the other things aren't there to put their symptoms into remission. They're there to enable - and likely exacerbate - those symptoms.

 

[Ziggurat]

Already answered, please consult your notes.

Not with anything sensible.

Your psychoanalytic evaluation gleaned from one sentence posted by the subject's father is... something.

It's not a psychoanalytic evaluation. It's merely an objective fact. "Nonbinary" doesn't mean anything. Nobody is "nonbinary". Lots of people are nonconforming.

 

[theprestige]

I have asked my closer fam about that specifically, and they all say 'whatever'. One of my whelps claims to be on the nonbinary spectrum (but has strictly hetero long term monogomous relationships so i don't quite get it)

Non-binary sexuality is distinct from and unrelated to non-binary gender expression. Stop conflating the two, and you'll start to get where your child is actually at in each case.

Also, everyone is on the non-binary gender expression spectrum. Because the social construct of gender expression is indeed a spectrum. We're all making conscious or subconscious choices about how we express ourselves on that spectrum. (For example, my wardrobe is largely unisex, with some "masc" items, but I make no effort to feminize my masculine physical traits, but I am growing out the hair on my head. Spectrum!)

Maybe your child means (or thinks they mean) they're on a non-binary gender identity spectrum. That might take some unpacking.

(Also, regarding your followup complaint to Ziggurat, you gave us this one sentence like we were supposed to make something of it. Don't come crying if we make something based on what you gave us, rather than based on everything you chose to leave out. Conversely, if you don't want us to make something of your situation, don't bring up your situation.)

 

[Thermal]

Non-binary sexuality is distinct from and unrelated to non-binary gender expression. Stop conflating the two, and you'll start to get where your child is actually at in each case.

Well your cohort just assured me that nonbinary doesn't even exist, so maybe you guys are the ones that need to huddle up and get your stories straight?

Also, everyone is on the non-binary gender expression spectrum.

Disagreed. Everybody is on the binary gender expression spectrum.

(Also, regarding your followup complaint to Ziggurat, you gave us this one sentence like we were supposed to make something of it. Don't come crying if we make something based on what you gave us, rather than based on everything you chose to leave out.

You didn't need to make anything out of it, and certainly had no basis to run wild with your unique theories.

Conversely, if you don't want us to make something of your situation, don't bring up your situation.)

Context sometimes helps. That doesn't make you guys abstract therapists, and if you want to play at that, the most basic starting point would be to acquire substantially more information.

 

[Aber]

Right. Zig told me what "women were telling me", and I pointed out that the vast majority of women (who tell me stuff) were telling me something quite different.

And I'm telling you that according to the data you are likely to be in a bubble.

 

[Thermal]

And I'm telling you that according to the data you are likely to be in a bubble.

It's hardly news that more liberal people tend to be pro-trans, and conservative anti-trans, and I am well aware of the kind of people I am around and who I listen to.

Which, oddly, was my point to Ziggaraut. He assumes women are telling us something with one voice. I point out that is not the case. So why aren't you directing this at Mr Zig?

 

[Ziggurat]

You didn't need to make anything out of it

Anything you say can and will be used against you. And I will make of it what I want.

Context sometimes helps. That doesn't make you guys abstract therapists

What I said had nothing to do with therapy. You can consider it a statement about proper terminology if that makes you feel better.

 

[theprestige]

Well your cohort just assured me that nonbinary doesn't even exist, so maybe you guys are the ones that need to huddle up and get your stories straight?

Aw. Trying to play off mommy and daddy against each other?

Disagreed. Everybody is on the binary gender expression spectrum.

Is this binary spectrum in the room with us right now?

You didn't need to make anything out of it, and certainly had no basis to run wild with your unique theories.

You didn't need to bring it up, but here we are.

Context sometimes helps. That doesn't make you guys abstract therapists, and if you want to play at that, the most basic starting point would be to acquire substantially more information.

Nobody's trying to play abstract therapist. We're making basic comments based on the basic information provided. If you don't like basic comments, don't bring basic info.

This whole sidebar is ironic, since your entire approach to trans rights in public bathrooms has been extremely basic, and extremely resistant to requests for more sophistication. I.e., proposing self-ID but refusing to grapple with any of the implications and challenges of that proposal.

 

[Ziggurat]

Which, oddly, was my point to Ziggaraut. He assumes women are telling us something with one voice.

No, I do not assume that at all. But I have observed women in this thread telling you something, and I have observed you ignoring them.

 

[Thermal]

Anything you say can and will be used against you. And I will make of it what I want.

Touche.

What I said had nothing to do with therapy. You can consider it a statement about proper terminology if that makes you feel better.

The APA and every relevant scientific body I can think up acknowledges the term you say doesn't exist. That makes me feel better.

 

[Aber]

It's hardly news that more liberal people tend to be pro-trans, and conservative anti-trans, and I am well aware of the kind of people I am around and who I listen to.

False dichotomy.

It's the conservatives AND independents that oppose your position. The Democratic party and voters seem to have made it a purity test, but even then it is still only 52% in favour.

 

[Thermal]

No, I do not assume that at all. But I have observed women in this thread telling you something, and I have observed you ignoring them.

I have listened, considered, and discussed their respective points. Each and every one bails and changes the subject, only to bring it up again a couple pages later. As i'm sure you might have heard, rinse and repeat.

 

[Ziggurat]

The APA and every relevant scientific body I can think up acknowledges the term you say doesn't exist. That makes me feel better.

The same APA that falsely claimed puberty blockers were reversible?

 

[Thermal]

The same APA that falsely claimed puberty blockers were reversible?

Seems unerring perfection is your standard for base credibility now? We should apply that universally, yes? To posters and their claims here, yes?

 

[Ziggurat]

Seems unerring perfection is your standard for base credibility now? We should apply that universally, yes? To posters and their claims here, yes?

That wasn't a mistake. That was ideological capture. And if you want to rely on them as an authority rather than just another participant in a debate, then yes, it's disqualifying.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm having significant trouble replicating your statistic here.

According to HRC there were 28 birth-assigned males and 4 birth-assigned females murdered in the U.S. in 2024.

Also according to HRC there are 2 million transgender people in the U.S.

32 out of 2 million is a baseline rate of 1.6 per 100,000 so if we take one fourth of that it would be .4 per 100,000.

Given 340 million Americans in that time period, that would be only 1,360 murders in a year, but the usual figure is around 20k.

1.6 per 100K is definitely not 4 times 5.8 per 100K.

 

[Thermal]

That wasn't a mistake. That was ideological capture. And if you want to rely on them as an authority rather than just another participant in a debate, then yes, it's disqualifying.

Ok. So we have virtually the entirety of the planet acknowledging the existence of nonbinary, including theprestige, versus Ziggaraut. I'll take that for exactly what it is. I'm sure you will be busy correcting him soon, anyway.