Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[angrysoba]

Given smartcooky’s stated opinions, I have been wondering about an anecdote he told a while back about a “real trans woman” who he knows from his pub quizzes. He apparently has friendly conversations with this trans woman who agrees with him that the TRAs are really out of control, etc…

Now, I wonder, and I can’t ask smartcooky directly because he has me on ignore, does smartcooky do his ideological duty to the 99.6% and bar the door of the ladies loo should the pub quiz transwoman attempt to use it?

(Actually I put this forward with a bit of trepidation as I realize that he might not do this at all, and that in the pub the transwoman is completely accepted as Joanna and nobody bats an eyelid when she uses the ladies. But by asking, smartcooky might feel like he now has to put his money where his mouth is.)

 

[theprestige]

Many folks here have said that they are just fine with laws or policies preventing employment discrimination against transgender people, but as soon as actual policies came up forcibly separating trans folk from active duty service (e.g. here in the U.S.) they either went mum or else switched sides and started arguing for employment discrimination against transgender employees under those specific circumstances.

I consider military service to be a special case, so no problems for me here.

 

[d4m10n]

I can see treating downrange combat duty as a special case, but not the folks manning desks at the logistics hub tryna get war materiel to the right place at the right time, nor the folks flying drones from a remote site in Nevada, nor the folks calculating orbital transfers for Space Force, nor the folks doing office work at the Pentagon. Those latter cases are all office jobs, and it's just fine if they need hormones or blood pressure meds on a daily basis.

 

[smartcooky]

Many folks here have said that they are just fine with laws or policies preventing employment discrimination against transgender people, but as soon as actual policies came up forcibly separating trans folk from active duty service (e.g. here in the U.S.) they either went mum or else switched sides and started arguing for employment discrimination against transgender employees under those specific circumstances.

I see no reason for the military to ban transgender people, although I cannot see why any transwomen would want to serve.

 

[theprestige]

I see no reason for the military to ban transgender people,

The military isn't a therapy service for people with gender dysphoria.

although I cannot see why any transwomen would want to serve.

Guaranteed government medical benefits for their mental health issues.

Wouldn't it be ironic if a man who's uncomfortable in his own body gets better military medical care than a man suffering from post traumatic stress disorder from his combat service to his country?

 

[smartcooky]

In reality...

TRA arguments are never based in reality!

 

[Ziggurat]

The right to be a dick to a transwoman because she thinks they are all cross dressing pervs is not a woman's right. That's a bigot's perceived privilege.

It’s not being a dick for a woman to not want a male in female-only intimate spaces.

 

[Thermal]

Let's skip over the fact that nobody can change sex and talk about the practicalities. I seem to have typed this so often it should be burned into my computer's memory.

How is anyone supposed to tell whether any given man has had his cock and balls cut off? Blaire White hasn't, for one. With clothes on, they look exactly as they always did. So are you advocating for "papers please!" or actual genital inspections?

In reality, if any special group of men has the legal right to use women's facilities, and can't be challenged, then no man can be challenged. All an interloper has to do is to claim to be a member of the special group, and knowing that that's what's going to happen, no challenge is possible. We're back to self-ID, and distressed women self-excluding.

How you doing on that evidence for your claims about AGP, Rolfe? After you deliver it, we can repeat for you the dozens of other times your questions were answered.

 

[Thermal]

It’s not being a dick for a woman to not want a male in female-only intimate spaces.

And again: restrooms are neither female only nor intimate spaces.

Youre up. Rinse and repeat.

 

[Ziggurat]

I'm mostly down with that. I'm just not feeling 100% that a public rest room is an intimate space.

It absolutely is. Women keep telling you it is. I don’t understand why you refuse to believe them that it is.

Yes, there are some feminine issues that require privacy in the name of modesty. An actual private single occupant room makes 1000% more sense to accommodate for such eventualities anyway,

Whether or not this is true, it’s not feasible as a general solution. We aren’t going to retrofit every single multi-occupant single-sex bathroom into a bunch of single occupancy bathrooms. That simply costs too much. So we have to deal with how to handle multi-occupant bathrooms, which are more efficient.

In broad brush, and with the stipulation that not all transwomen are Bryson, is that a workable compromise?

No. A workable compromise is to make some single-occupancy bathrooms available where feasible, but keep multi-occupant bathrooms single sex. Trans people who do not pass but are uncomfortable using the bathroom corresponding to their sex can use those. I think you will find Rolfe is not opposed to that. The TRAs are, though.

 

[Thermal]

It absolutely is. Women keep telling you it is. I don’t understand why you refuse to believe them that it is.

The women telling me this are a small handful who show abnormally extreme bias. I am acquainted with exponentially more women who do not share such views. Yet you think the posters ITT, dedicating years to not listening to others, are the One True Voice. Do you even hear yourself?

I think you will find Rolfe is not opposed to that. The TRAs are, though.

Ya I'm pretty confident that Rolfe can be guaranteed to not agree with TRAs on anything. Thanks, Cap'n Obv.

ETA: also Men Only, Women Only, and Others is probably the worst solution imaginable.

 

[Ziggurat]

ETA: also Men Only, Women Only, and Others is probably the worst solution imaginable.

First off, it's not men only, women only, and others. It's men only, women only, and then anyone single occupancy. Occasionally non-trans men and women may have caused to prefer the single occupancy room, not just trans people. Hell, you even think it's superior.

And what exactly is the problem with it? Lots of places do this already, I'm not hearing any problems it causes.

 

[bruto]

Not sure if this is the right forum for it, but I just noticed this:

US military spends eight times more on Viagra than gender-affirming care

In a hearing over the Defense Department's removal of transgender service members, a judge uncovered that the military spends $42 million a year on Viagra.

www.newsweek.com

But it makes me wonder about definitions. If boner pills aren't "gender-affirming care," what is?

 

[smartcooky]

The women telling me this are a small handful who show abnormally extreme bias. I am acquainted with exponentially more women who do not share such views. Yet you think the posters ITT, dedicating years to not listening to others, are the One True Voice. Do you even hear yourself?

Well the women telling me this are pretty much every woman I know - the four women I work with (26, 44, 45 and 61 yrs), the several women in my quiz/games group ranging in ages from 36 to 72 (and including one transwoman), my ex-partner, both of my daughters (in their early 40's both of whom have been confronted by verbally nasty and aggressive transwomen in women's safe spaces) all three of my granddaughters (14, 16 and 18). Every one of them rejects the idea of men in their safe spaces. I have never met a woman who would.
I guess you'll think all my friends are tranny bashing bigots.

 

[Pixel42]

Transpeople are less than half a percent of the population. The pervs are an even smaller percentage of them.

It's the percentage of the total male population that are pervs that's the problem. The fact that almost all women have experienced some kind of unwanted sexual attention should give you an idea of how high that percentage is. Many women and girls can't even walk past a building site without being perved on. All most pervs seem to require is the opportunity, and a reasonable chance of getting away with it. Self ID gives them both.

 

[smartcooky]

It's the percentage of the total male population that are pervs that's the problem. The fact that almost all women have experienced some kind of unwanted sexual attention should give you an idea of how high that percentage is. Many women and girls can't even walk past a building site without being perved on. All most pervs seem to require is the opportunity, and a reasonable chance of getting away with it. Self ID gives them both.

THIS!

 

[Aber]

The women telling me this are a small handful who show abnormally extreme bias. I am acquainted with exponentially more women who do not share such views. Yet you think the posters ITT, dedicating years to not listening to others, are the One True Voice. Do you even hear yourself?

Not supported by the data; see Table 13A
https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/crosstabs_Transgender_Issues_Issues_20240216.pdf
Allow transgender people to use bathrooms which match their gender identity rather than their sex:
Female: Support 33%, Oppose 48%

The issue in the US is this is very politicised - see the difference between Democrats (52% support) and Independents (30% support). Consider which bubble you live in.

 

[Rolfe]

How you doing on that evidence for your claims about AGP, Rolfe? After you deliver it, we can repeat for you the dozens of other times your questions were answered.

Dodge noted. My question had nothing at all to do with AGP. You've never answered that question because you can't.

 

[Rolfe]

It absolutely is. Women keep telling you it is. I don’t understand why you refuse to believe them that it is.

Whether or not this is true, it’s not feasible as a general solution. We aren’t going to retrofit every single multi-occupant single-sex bathroom into a bunch of single occupancy bathrooms. That simply costs too much. So we have to deal with how to handle multi-occupant bathrooms, which are more efficient.

No. A workable compromise is to make some single-occupancy bathrooms available where feasible, but keep multi-occupant bathrooms single sex. Trans people who do not pass but are uncomfortable using the bathroom corresponding to their sex can use those. I think you will find Rolfe is not opposed to that. The TRAs are, though.

I'm seriously thinking of using the single-occupancy toilet myself. If the men won't stay out of the women's facilities, it looks like the only way to find a male-free space. For all its disadvantages.

 

[smartcooky]

Not supported by the data; see Table 13A
https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/crosstabs_Transgender_Issues_Issues_20240216.pdf
Allow transgender people to use bathrooms which match their gender identity rather than their sex:
Female: Support 33%, Oppose 48%

The issue in the US is this is very politicised - see the difference between Democrats (52% support) and Independents (30% support). Consider which bubble you live in.

I listened to a very interesting podcast a few nights ago featuring Dr. Helen Joyce, Director of Advocacy at "Sex Matters".

She pointed out that when you ask the bare question "Do you support or oppose idea that transgender women should be allowed to use women's bathrooms?", you get a result such at that (in her case it was something like 52% oppose 29% support 18% didn't know or had no opinion). However, when you dig deeper, you find that almost all of the 52% know exactly what transwomen are, but a large part of the 29% and 18% don't - the vast majority thinking the term "transwoman" refers to a biological female who is transgender. When they are told this is wrong, and that "transwomen" are biological males", that 29% support collapses dramatically, and when you re-ask the question, you get more like 75% opposed.