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Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

It's a complex issue. The idea that there is some simple solution is naive. I want women to be comfortable and safe. I also want transgender individuals to also be safe and comfortable. I get that transgender females in women's bathrooms is not perfect. But I absolutely believe it would be worse to deny or criminalize it.
 
It's my bedtime, but I can find the references later.

The figures relating to trans-identifying men (especially "of colour") being murdered are massively skewed by the situation in South America, particularly Brazil, where very many of these people work as prostitutes. It's a high-risk occupation for anyone, and a lot of the murders are pimp-on-prostitute or gang-related or drugs-related, or even a client losing it when he discovers that the "woman" he is with isn't a woman at all. Now frankly I do not want the law in my country altered to take account of the murders of prostitutes half the planet away.

The figures have been scrutinised for Britain, and trans-identifying men are the safest people there are. They are murdered at a much much lower rate than other men are murdered, and even at a significantly lower rate than women are murdered. The one thing a man can do to reduce his chances of being murdered appears to be to put on a dress, a wig and lipstick, frankly.

Then when the actual cases are examined (there are so few that this is not an onerous study) it transpires that these people are murdered for much the same reasons anyone else is murdered. Crime, drug deals gone wrong, domestic violence and so on. Trying to find one single case where the motive was simply hatred of that person for being trans is almost impossible. (The Brianna Ghey case is perhaps the closest, but it appears he was murdered more for being weird than for being trans as such.)

A list of supposed trans murders that was circulating recently included suicides, deaths by drug overdose and I think natural causes. They hold a solemn "trans day of remembrance" in Scotland (on my actual birthday, thanks a bundle) and there has not been one single murder of a trans person in the country ever, as far as can be ascertained.

So frankly, copypasting figures compiled by trans propagandists and posting them as gospel truth ain't cutting it. I'm not going to agree to letting Isla Bryson and Katie Dolatowski and Amy George (when they get out of jail) or the rest of the unsavoury trans-identifying men around here into my single-sex spaces because black men who are working as female-impersonating prostitutes in Brazil are putting themselves in harms way. Indeed I'm not going to agree to any trans-identifying men in my single-sex spaces where I actually live, because these guys are massively privileged, with organisations, law enforcement, the health service and the government bending over backwards to indulge their every whim.

Someone recently tried to find a case where a trans-identifying person had actually been assaulted in Scotland, lacking any actual murders. All that could be found was a case of a drunken spat between two halves of a lesbian couple, and the one who identified as a trans man was slightly injured.

So knock it off.
 
acbytesla said:
I am far more concerned about how males with toxic masculinity deal with the issue than a rare encounter in a woman's bathroom where they think the person might be a male dressed as a female.
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If you were actually concerned about how males with toxic masculinity deal with it... you'd be advocating for males to be more accepting of males with gender identity issues in male sex-specific spaces, and you'd be calling for males in general to be kind and compassionate and accepting and inclusive of males that don't dress like traditional males.
 
d4m10n said:
I'd be surprised to learn that trans men are more likely to be murdered than natal males.

Where can I find your homicide stats broken out by birth sex and target sex?
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They NEVER break it out by sex. It's ALWAYS lumped together.

And when reporting sexual violence against transgender people, they routinely conflate childhood sexual trauma that is disproportionately present in females with sexual violence that occurred after transition - they ignore that a whole lot of females who identify as trans in their teen years are doing so as a coping response to having been abused when younger.

Any time you see reporting about the sexual violence experienced by transgender identified males specifically, they fail to control for the fact that a large portion of them are prostitutes, and the violence happens in the course of prostitution. They compare male prostitutes who identify as "women" versus average females, and say "oh look, these poor transwomen are sexually abused at such high levels!" Never mind that the rate is lower than it is for female prostitutes.
 
acbytesla said:
Trans individuals are 4 times more likely to be murdered...
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acbytesla said:
Transgender people are over four times more likely to be victims of violent crime than cisgender people.
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I'm having significant trouble replicating your statistic here.

According to HRC there were 28 birth-assigned males and 4 birth-assigned females murdered in the U.S. in 2024.

Also according to HRC there are 2 million transgender people in the U.S.

32 out of 2 million is a baseline rate of 1.6 per 100,000 so if we take one fourth of that it would be .4 per 100,000.

Given 340 million Americans in that time period, that would be only 1,360 murders in a year, but the usual figure is around 20k.
 
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acbytesla said:
It's a complex issue. The idea that there is some simple solution is naive.
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No, there is a simple solution that is not naive...no biological males in female safe spaces, at all, ever. That covers ALL possible contingencies.

acbytesla said:
I want women to be comfortable and safe.
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Good to see you acknowledge this ..finally.

acbytesla said:
I also want transgender individuals to also be safe and comfortable.
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That is their own problem to solve. If they would not outright REFUSE to use unisex/mixed sex/disabled spaces when provided, the problem would be solved. *

acbytesla said:
I get that transgender females in women's bathrooms is not perfect. But I absolutely believe it would be worse to deny or criminalize it.
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Why should it be the responsibility of women to fix this problem for TIMs? No-one has yet given me a satisfactory explanation.

* NOTE: You need to think about why this is? Why do transwomen refuse to take the obvious solution presented to them? I can tell you why... its a flex. Transwomen such as those who showed us exactly who they are in the recent protests in the UK are the ultimate misgogynists...they hate real biological women for having that which they themselves can never have. They want to be in those spaces in order to stick it to them.

Granted that not all transwoman are like them, but a LOT of them are, and how can we tell the difference? It's best to ban them all, in the same way that all cis-males are banned, even the good ones.
 
acbytesla said:
6. Intimate Partner and Family Violence:
A significant portion of transgender homicide victims are killed by intimate partners or family members.
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Quite so. That is tragic, and we should do something about it if we can.

But allowing trans-identifying males access to female bathrooms will not protect them from intimate partner violence, because that’s not usually where such violence occurs. That isn’t the something we should do, because it will not help.
 
Ziggurat said:
I found a Williams study on transgender crime victimization:
Gender Identity Disparities in Criminal Victimization
However, this article has nothing to do with bathrooms. The word "bathroom" doesn't even appear in the article. It's just about general crime victimization rates.

Furthermore, as with many other studies, this one does not attempt to control for risk factors, so there is no possible way to conclude from the presented data how much (if any) of the increased crime rate is due to being transgender versus other correlated factors such as income level, age, drug use, etc. This study clearly does not support the claim Thermal made, but perhaps he has a different one in mind.
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Not the one I had in mind. Looking over my history, I think this was the one I was recalling, but I didn't link it.


I did recall correctly that I linked the Reuters article below.

https://www.reuters.com/article/wor...blic-restrooms-landmark-survey-idUSKBN13X0BJ/

(Also for @theprestige who requested a repost)
 
Thermal said:
Not the one I had in mind. Looking over my history, I think this was the one I was recalling, but I didn't link it.

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This is not a primary source. It cites several primary sources such as this:


This appears to be results from an anonymous online survey, and I think their other sources mostly are as well. The methods section does not actually identify how respondents were invites to participate, but participation was a self-selection process on top of whatever selection method they used to promote the survey. I do not find these results particularly robust, to put it mildly.
 
Ziggurat said:
This is not a primary source. It cites several primary sources such as this:


This appears to be results from an anonymous online survey, and I think their other sources mostly are as well. The methods section does not actually identify how respondents were invites to participate, but participation was a self-selection process on top of whatever selection method they used to promote the survey. I do not find these results particularly robust, to put it mildly.
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Yes, which is why I didn't link to it, but I recalled it (I even put an IIRC beacause it was a while ago).

I find it more robust than the multiple twitter posts that have been proven to be false, though.

Either way, I'm out. I prefer my masochism with a happy ending.
 
Thermal said:
Either way, I'm out. I prefer my masochism with a happy ending.
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Before you leave for good (for about the fifth time by my count) perhaps you could tell us all why YOU believe it should be the responsibility of women to accommodate the fantasies of these Trans-Identified Males? So far, no-one on the pro-trans side has been able to propose a satisfactory answer to this question - its one question that seems to always be dodged, handwaved away or ignored.... and I wonder why that is?
 
He certainly is. They're not all like that, obviously, but when one of them insists on becoming involved in women's rape counselling services, we have to assume that this is the motivation. Any man with an ounce of empathy, trans-identifying or not, would understand an abused woman's need for a space free from men and not insist on inserting himself. Even if they're not posting wanking selfies on social media, this is a huge red flag.
 
acbytesla said:
I believe everyone needs to evacuate their bowels and bladders. Where they do it matters little to me. I hope that it is sanitary. I can appreciate a certain desire for privacy. That is why there are stalls. Beyond that, I don't care.
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Christ. After all this time you don’t get that public toilets are the least problematic ( but still not trivial) issue! It’s change rooms, sports, prisons, health services etc etc. Your simplification is the problem,
 
The usual enormous empathy for the poor marginalised trans-identifying men, and none at all for women.
 
smartcooky said:
Before you leave for good (for about the fifth time by my count) perhaps you could tell us all...
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You don'rt seem to understand the concept of "I'm out". See, if you pose a question, comment, or challenge to a poster that pings on their alerts, a reasonably polite poster will feel obligated to respond.
smartcooky said:
why YOU believe it should be the responsibility of women to accommodate the fantasies of these Trans-Identified Males?
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I don't. Well that was time well spent.
smartcooky said:
So far, no-one on the pro-trans side has been able to propose a satisfactory answer to this question - its one question that seems to always be dodged, handwaved away or ignored.... and I wonder why that is?
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Because it is an ignorant, bigoted question that ignores the many pages of discussion, and indicates that you are so steeped in your willful ignorance that you do not understand anything that has been discussed, apparently for years, and probably won't understand if repeated yet again.

You say no one has provided a 'satisfactory answer'. That's because you are not satisfied with anything but a parroting of your own view. Again, that's your shortcoming, no one else's.
 
smartcooky said:
So far, no-one on the pro-trans side has been able to propose a satisfactory answer to this question...
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Do you happen to know what the standard (presumably non-satisfactory) answer is from the TRA side? We've seen it often enough.
 
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