Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 32

[Vixen]

By comparing your caricature of her behavior to that of "the usual streetwalkers."

Most streetwalkers are there by misfortune, great poverty and social deprivation, often controlled by unsavoury men and many are drug addicts who turn to crime to fund their addiction. There is no such thing as a victimless crime but I would say a streetwalker is far less a heinous criminal than a cruel brutal killer who killed for thrills.




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[TruthCalls]

I am going by what came out in court. As you know, the prosecutor is not allowed to make false representations to the court (similar to our Bar Standards) so if the expert witnesses said they were mixed DNA samples - and there were five all together lining Knox and Mez - then I have no reason to believe they were lying and setting out to deceive.

ETA: This discussion is specifically about the ONE sample collected in Filomena's room with both MK and AK DNA profiles, not five.

YOU wrote "This was via blood which scientists could identify by the high RFU's, as only blood reacts in that way."

I'm referring directly from the e-gram for Rep: 177. The RFU values are incredibly low and CERTAINLY do NOT indicate blood.

Odd, Rep: 145 (cigarette with RS and AK DNA) has RFU values 2-3 times higher than Rep: 177, yet was determined to be saliva.

I'm not interested in what someone in court claimed. I'm talking about the RFU values as shown in the e-gram. YOU just wrote you only deal in the real world. I want YOU to agree the numbers are very low and do NOT indicate blood. Alternatively, you can declare it is your opinion saliva returns RFU values much higher than blood.

 

[Numbers]

Ugh, I think it's the same old subterfuge and arrogant self-protection on the part of the Italian criminal justice system. They're not far off the likes of Turkiye, Egypt or Russia in that regard. Whether Knox will have the stomach - and the available funds - to spend another several years going back to the ECHR and then through the Italian courts once again. is open to question. It's a disgrace, of course, but nobody should be surprised at that I guess.

Your question, as to whether Knox would have the will and the means to continue her effort to have the calunnia against Lumumba re-conviction overturned by a second request for a retrial under CPP Article 628 bis following a second application to the ECHR and, of course, the requisite second final ECHR judgment finding a new violation of Convention Article 6.1, is on the mark.

Based on some statements, IIRC, by her lawyers as reported in the media, I suspect there is an intent to file a new application to the ECHR. That may not necessarily be true. She has 4 months after the delivery to her and her lawyers of the MR to file an application, according to the Convention. The Boni CSC panel MR was filed 7 April 2025 in the CSC clerical registry, so the ECHR application deadline is approximately 7 August 2025 (it may be later by a few days to allow for delivery time to the lawyers or Knox).

Regarding the expenses expected in an application and any follow-up written responses to questions from the ECHR, an estimate of these can be obtained by examining the 2019 final ECHR judgment Knox v. Italy, paragraphs 193 and 195. Knox had requested 30,000 EUR for those expenses but was rewarded only 8,000 EUR as compensation for those expenses. So apparently Knox suffered a loss of 22,000 EUR on the ECHR case.

While the ECHR judgment wording is not clear, it seems that Knox had also requested compensation for her legal costs before the domestic courts, but the ECHR rejected her request on the grounds that it lacked sufficient detail. I speculate that part of the problem may have been the difficulty of isolating the costs of defending against the calunnia charge when the lawyers were at the same time, in the same courts, defending against the murder/rape charges.

However, even if Knox were not to start a second ECHR case claiming that her rights under Convention Article 6.1 had been violated by the re-trial and re-conviction, there is some supervisory action that the DEJ/CoM must take under CoE international law to obtain an Action Plan/Report from Italy to achieve a final resolution of the 2019 Knox v. Italy case.

 

[LondonJohn]

Most streetwalkers are there by misfortune, great poverty and social deprivation, often controlled by unsavoury men and many are drug addicts who turn to crime to fund their addiction. There is no such thing as a victimless crime but I would say a streetwalker is far less a heinous criminal than a cruel brutal killer who killed for thrills.




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Totally agree: Guede is a far, far worse person than most of the women who, often through misfortune or substance abuse, work as prostitutes.

 

[LondonJohn]

It doesn't change the fact the pair switched off their phones for the duration of the murder*. AK made a cursory call to each of Mez' phones simply to establish an alibi. When she rang Filomena, she said she was going back to Sollecito's when he was probably standing at her shoulder.


*Criminals, let me give you some advice: if you think switching off your phone means that police 'can't prove' you were there at the crime scene, I assure you, nothing looks more suspicious.



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Do you want a crane to help you move those goalposts such a staggering distance?

 

[Numbers]

That is not what the Massei or Nencini court found.

The Marasca CSC final judgment of acquittal on the murder/rape charges found the bra clasp DNA alleged evidence to be unreliable evidence on the basis of the expert report by Conti and Vecchiotti.

 

[SpitfireIX]

"Everybody is marching out of step except for my little Johnny!"

"Everybody is marching out of step except for my little Vixen!"

 

[SpitfireIX]

Asked and answered.

No, you haven't answered at all. You said something to the effect that the "fact" that Vanessa attempted to abuse her position to help Raffaele proved that she was corrupt, as if that implies that she must be connected with a "prominent Italian crime family." Apart from the fact that a) you haven't proved your premise b) the conclusion doesn't follow, that's not what I asked. And everyone reading the thread can see that you're just dishonestly avoiding the question because you don't have a good answer. Feel free to prove me wrong by providing one.

Now, one more time, how did she get to be a lieutenant in the Carabinieri in the first place if she was a member of a "prominent Italian crime family?"

 

[Stacyhs]

Stacyhs said:
What Vixen has either forgotten (or, more likely, chooses to ignore) is that phone logs do not record how long a phone rings before being picked up or going to voicemail. It only records the time starting when the call is answered by a person, a message such as "not in service", or voicemail.

Doesn't change the truth AK only let them ring for a few seconds before hanging up.

How many seconds does it take to understand "The number you have reached is out of service" or "This is Meredith. Please leave a message", Vixen? For most of us, it only takes 3-4 seconds...which is the amount of time she listened to the message before hanging up.

Let's be honest. What the PGP are really doing when they repeat the "AK only let them ring for a few seconds before hanging up" schtick is implying she hung up so fast because she knew Kercher was dead already.

 

[Welshman]

These were the defence talking points. The courts preferred the court appointed independent expert witnesses. (cf. Nencini)


It was pointed out that in a crime scene LCN matters not if you can extract good quality DNA from it. The defence expert geneticist, Torre - a highly respected figure - was there as a witness for the defence to observe the DNA testing. He raised no objections as to the method, process or environment.



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It is yet another example of guilter stupidity when they claim Meredith's DNA was on a knife whose characteristics would have it made it physically impossible for the knife to have been used to stab Meredith or contain her DNA.


The knife was picked at random with no other knives taken from Raffaele’s kitchen or the cottage. Is it credible a knife collected under these circumstances was the murder weapon.
The knife didn’t match a bloody imprint on the bed.
The knife was too large to have caused the two smaller wounds.
There was bruising on the fatal wound which indicated the knife had gone all the way in. The length of the fatal wound was 8 cm whilst the length of the knife was 17 cm which indicated the knife couldn’t have caused the larger wound.
The knife didn’t have any blood or human biological material on it.
The defence had no objection to the knife being opened while the prosecution didn’t want the knife opened.

 

[Vixen]

ETA: This discussion is specifically about the ONE sample collected in Filomena's room with both MK and AK DNA profiles, not five.

YOU wrote "This was via blood which scientists could identify by the high RFU's, as only blood reacts in that way."

I'm referring directly from the e-gram for Rep: 177. The RFU values are incredibly low and CERTAINLY do NOT indicate blood.

Odd, Rep: 145 (cigarette with RS and AK DNA) has RFU values 2-3 times higher than Rep: 177, yet was determined to be saliva.

I'm not interested in what someone in court claimed. I'm talking about the RFU values as shown in the e-gram. YOU just wrote you only deal in the real world. I want YOU to agree the numbers are very low and do NOT indicate blood. Alternatively, you can declare it is your opinion saliva returns RFU values much higher than blood.

To save arguing all of this again, it might be worth someone linking to an earlier discussion on this, if interested enough. Seems to me the geneticists can differentiate between DNA from epithelial cells, saliva and other bodily fluids, such as blood. As I recall, Stefanoni did say the mixed DNA in Filomena's room was at least Mez' DNA from blood. This is something to do with white blood cells being rich in DNA material, whereas saliva and skin, not particularly, which is why when you do a home DNA test the best place for a swab is to rub the stick for quite a few seconds against your inner cheek, for a decent sample.




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[Vixen]

The Marasca CSC final judgment of acquittal on the murder/rape charges found the bra clasp DNA alleged evidence to be unreliable evidence on the basis of the expert report by Conti and Vecchiotti.

...who were excoriated and expunged by Chieffi Supreme Court as 'intellectually dishonest', and having no raison d'être for their even being appointed. In addition, even Hellmann summonsed them to explain to his court why they were making DVD's for the defence without court permission (they were raided by the Carabinieri, caught in the act).

Marasca-Bruno did not have the legal power to resuscitate the crooked pair.



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[Vixen]

No, you haven't answered at all. You said something to the effect that the "fact" that Vanessa attempted to abuse her position to help Raffaele proved that she was corrupt, as if that implies that she must be connected with a "prominent Italian crime family." Apart from the fact that a) you haven't proved your premise b) the conclusion doesn't follow, that's not what I asked. And everyone reading the thread can see that you're just dishonestly avoiding the question because you don't have a good answer. Feel free to prove me wrong by providing one.

Now, one more time, how did she get to be a lieutenant in the Carabinieri in the first place if she was a member of a "prominent Italian crime family?"

Wait. You brought up the subject of Vanessa Sollecito. I am not the slightest bit interested in her. Do your own research into why she was 'forced out' of the Carabinieri; she herself said it was to do with her brother. As for your crime family quote you are not quoting me you are quoting Naseer Ahmad.

Please ensure you cite me properly and accurately, and within the correct context. You already falsely accused me of calling AK a prostitute, if you would like to retract that claim.


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[Vixen]

How many seconds does it take to understand "The number you have reached is out of service" or "This is Meredith. Please leave a message", Vixen? For most of us, it only takes 3-4 seconds...which is the amount of time she listened to the message before hanging up.

Let's be honest. What the PGP are really doing when they repeat the "AK only let them ring for a few seconds before hanging up" schtick is implying she hung up so fast because she knew Kercher was dead already.

Is this another one of your what-if hypothetical alternative scenarios?





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[Stacyhs]

It was Mignini's job as the public prosecutor for the area to - gasp - catch the nastiest, most brutal and cunning of criminals.

No. It was his job to catch whoever killed Meredith by letting the evidence lead him to the killer and not interpreting the evidence to fit his theory. For a man who admired Sherlock Holmes' investigative skills, he forgot Holmes' investigative philosophy:
“ It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.””

I am sure they were not too keen on his seeing right through them.

Do you hire out your psychic abilities for parties?

As for charging people with Calunnia, it broke the Italian CPP to try to pervert the course of justice/obstruct justice and, as prosecutor, he had a statutory obligation to press charges.

He had a statutory obligation to provide them with a lawyer, an impartial interpreter, and to investigate Knox's allegation of being cuffed by Ficarra, too.

It's like a thief moaning about being picked on for being caught stealing. "Wah! The nasty prosecutor stitched me up by charging me. Bastard!'

It's like an innocent person 'moaning' about being targeted by an overzealous prosecutor and police who suffered from "investigative bouts of amnesia," and who conducted an investigation full of "glaring errors" and "stunning weakness".

 

[Vixen]

No. It was his job to catch whoever killed Meredith by letting the evidence lead him to the killer and not interpreting the evidence to fit his theory. For a man who admired Sherlock Holmes' investigative skills, he forgot Holmes' investigative philosophy:
“ It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.””

Do you hire out your psychic abilities for parties?
View attachment 60762



He had a statutory obligation to provide them with a lawyer, an impartial interpreter, and to investigate Knox's allegation of being cuffed by Ficarra, too.

It's like an innocent person 'moaning' about being targeted by an overzealous prosecutor and police who suffered from "investigative bouts of amnesia," and who conducted an investigation full of "glaring errors" and "stunning weakness".

Oh dear.


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[Stacyhs]

AK says the other inmates were 'jealous' of her because she was 'famous' right in the opening chapter sample when she curiously talks about herself in the third person at some points and introduces how she was led into a prison, seemingly unaware it was a prison.

Wow. Yet another mischaracterization. You imply that she was gloating about being famous when, in fact, she was accurately describing her situation. She was famous; her arrest for Kercher's murder was the biggest story on the news and she did get a lot of attention. As she said,

Being the only American and "famous" was not a good thing. When the TV screens weren't turned to game shows and soap operas, my face was plastered across them, accompanied by salacious speculation about drug-addled sex-fiend Foxy Knoxy. I would have given anything to blink that media coverage out of existence. But the other women, many of whom had been ignored or forgotten by society to begin with, and who felt even more neglected and forgotten in prison to begin with, were jealous of the attention, however negative it was. This made me a target.

As for "[She] curiously talks about herself in the third person at some points," she's relating how she talked to her younger self in an effort to reassure herself. But you seem to have some kind of problem with that.

Imagine being the prime suspect of one of the most heinous brutal and cruel murders of our time and thinking yourself 'famous'.

Another mischaracterization This is what she wrote:

Being the only American and "famous" was not a good thing.

Vixen:
A class above the usual streetwalkers, I am sure.

MEOW!!!

 

[SpitfireIX]

Let me explain carefully.

Let me explain carefully. As usual, you don't know what you're talking about.

Considering yourself 'famous' because you are a murder suspect is assuming a class hierachy, which places you higher than those on lesser charges, such as streetwalkers. In other words, the more serious your crime, the higher your class, according to AK's logic, and AK, herself in her preface 'free sample' states that most of the women in Capanne were prostitutes or other similar low-class types, not a high class 'famous' murder suspect like herself.

That's not what she said.

From Free, p. 21:

As excited as I'd been to enter gen-pop [general population], sharing a cell with four other women came with its own downsides, as did navigating the yard each day. Mostly because I was the odd one out. Being the only American and "famous" was not a good thing. When the TV screens weren't tuned to game shows and soap operas, my face was plastered across them, accompanied by salacious speculation about drug-addled sex-fiend Foxy Knoxy. I would have given anything to blink that media out of existence. But the other women, many of whom had been ignored or forgotten by society to begin with, and who felt even more neglected and forgotten in prison, were jealous of the attention, however negative it was. This made me a target. [italics original]​

Further, prostitution is legal in Italy.

Clear now?

 

[SpitfireIX]

Most streetwalkers are there by misfortune, great poverty and social deprivation, often controlled by unsavoury men and many are drug addicts who turn to crime to fund their addiction. There is no such thing as a victimless crime but I would say a streetwalker is far less a heinous criminal than a cruel brutal killer who killed for thrills.

As I said, prostitution is legal in Italy. It is somewhat regulated, but violations usually involve fines, and generally for the clients. Being a pimp or madam is illegal, as is, naturally, human trafficking.

 

[SpitfireIX]

...who were excoriated and expunged by Chieffi Supreme Court as 'intellectually dishonest', and having no raison d'être for their even being appointed. In addition, even Hellmann summonsed them to explain to his court why they were making DVD's for the defence without court permission (they were raided by the Carabinieri, caught in the act).

Marasca-Bruno did not have the legal power to resuscitate the crooked pair.

Granting, arguendo, that all of the above is true, you need to explain how any of it actually invalidates their scientific criticism. Otherwise, you're just attempting to spread FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) about their work.