• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Merged Due process in the US

As a corollary, we should consider the things you can do that will put your citizenship in danger no matter how you acquired it. Conviction for treason. Renunciation of citizenship. Being naturalized in a different country. Serving in the armed forces of another country. No condition of citizenship is unconditionally guaranteed. Naturalized citizens are not second-class citizens. Natural-born citizens are not somehow inherently endowed with perpetual citizenship.
True enough, any citizen can do things to jeopardize their citizenship, just as anyone can do things that curtail other rights. But that is a one-way street. If you don't do those things, there is no miscellaneous category of ways others can take it away.
 
True enough, any citizen can do things to jeopardize their citizenship, just as anyone can do things that curtail other rights. But that is a one-way street. If you don't do those things, there is no miscellaneous category of ways others can take it away.
I agree. The thrust of my argument is that notions of inherent citizenship and the inherent rights of citizenship are not as solidly founded as are being claimed by some in this thread. Without undermining in any way your licet nisi prohibitum argument (which is correct), the broader observation is that if citizenship can be taken away by statute, then it ultimately arises from and is governed by statute. There's no magically inalienable status of citizenship—"God-given," for lack of a better term. Ultimately if a righteous government can already take your citizenship away for reasons, then a corrupt government can make up reasons to do it no matter how you got your citizenship or where your right to remain derives. And if you cannot depend on your citizenship or your right to remain, then where does that put all of us?

When we say that a statutory right to remain is irrelevant to what we want to do to some people who are present lawfully, that starts us down the slippery slope. "Well, I'm a natural-born citizen, so that gives me a right that the government may not alienate." No, it really doesn't. This is why it's vitally important to defend vigorously the right to remain for those whose claim on such right is the most tenuous under our law, and require it to be challenged only by due process. Once you accept that someone's right is too attenuated to bother defending, it's game-over.
 
Last edited:
He wants to do away with birthright citizenship and deport native born enemies, like, say, Barrack Obama.
 
He wants to do away with birthright citizenship and deport native born enemies, like, say, Barrack Obama.
Unfortunately relevant reminder time. Trump pushed Birtherism, hard. That was a lot of Trump falsely claiming that Barrack Obama was not native born. Also a lot of Republicans supporting his false claims.
 
Last edited:
Even if you accept the claim that undocumented immigrants are not entitled to due process, you’d still need due process to ensure that they are in fact, undocumented.
Not according to some. If they’re brown - undocumented. ◊◊◊◊ due process
 
They have been already, and if Pres. Trump has his way, many more will be....

A natural born citizen can ONLY be deported in error, or if they are a minor and the legal guardian is being deported and does not want the child to be with anyone else.
 
Why cant they just wait online like everyone else? What makes them special?

Most other nations take this VERY seriously, why should the USA be any different?
There is no line for the vast majority of would-be immigrants, and imagining that there is one is sort of the problem--native-born Americans have no idea how broken our immigration system is, because they've never had cause to interact with it. For example, you think the immigration process is little more than a criminal background check and a job offer--why would vetting that take decades?

Your opinions are richly informed by a deep well of ignorance.
 
A natural born citizen can ONLY be deported in error
Address the other ways I mentioned.

...if they are a minor and the legal guardian is being deported and does not want the child to be with anyone else.
No, that's not what happened. That's what ICE claimed was the case. If only those people had had due process...
 
A natural born citizen can ONLY be deported in error, or if they are a minor and the legal guardian is being deported and does not want the child to be with anyone else.
It'll be a sight to see as you add more and more "or clauses" to that sentence.
 
They cant be deported.
A natural born citizen can ONLY be deported in error, or if they are a minor and the legal guardian is being deported and does not want the child to be with anyone else.

So then they can be deported.

This would be the part where a person with integrity would admit that they are wrong and apologize for the error.
 
A natural born citizen can ONLY be deported in error, or if they are a minor and the legal guardian is being deported and does not want the child to be with anyone else.
And a naturalized citizen who has not committed any of the specifically listed offenses listed can also ONLY be deported in error, but right here, right now, the Lord of Misrule is working to change that. Malicious error is his joy. His mistakes are deliberate, his defiance of law and decency ongoing, his lies and fabrications egregious. He and his minions are right now challenging the boundaries of legality and civility, and challenging the very foundation of Constitutional law, threatening both the legislative and judicial powers with reprisal for ideological deviation. The gulf between "shouldn't" and "can't" is widening. You're free as always to decide what price you're willing to pay for your ideas, what liberties you're willing to sacrifice for them, but don't be too surprised when the bill comes due.
 
There is no line for the vast majority of would-be immigrants, and imagining that there is one is sort of the problem--native-born Americans have no idea how broken our immigration system is, because they've never had cause to interact with it. For example, you think the immigration process is little more than a criminal background check and a job offer--why would vetting that take decades?....

Wrong.

I know there is a very long process to immigrate to USA.

And I know there is a long line of applications that are waiting to be processed.

I don't think it's fair for people to jump the line. And I don't think such people should be rewarded.
 
I know there is a very long process to immigrate to USA.
There is no process for the vast majority of would-be immigrants. They are simply ineligible for immigration visas.

You don't have the foggiest idea what you're talking about, but you feel the need to talk about it anyway.
 
While thinking about all this, let us not forget that the leading ideologue and demagogue who is in command of the current trend is on record as saying that "immigrants are poisoning the blood of our country." I think you really need to keep in mind the character of this enterprise. This is not normal rhetoric, and these are not normal times.

Here in Vermont, migrant farm workers are an important part of the economy and the community. It appears that there really is no mechanism whereby those who are entering to do the work could do so legally. The governor has appealed for reform of immigration to expand the program for guest workers, but of course it's not happening.

And meanwhile....


Because we have to fend off the threat of all those alien hordes coming to steal our jobs. No doubt some of the bureaucrats Doge just fired will be happy to come up here and shovel out barns and collect sap and all that other wholesome stuff. And, of course, since almost all of Vermont is within 100 miles of the border, ICE can go anywhere. Where will they show up next?



"And Christ will be our darling, and fear will be our name..."
 
Of course, the fear of criminal immigrants doing bad deeds has another, simpler answer than mass deportation and the conflation of civil and criminal law, which is...

Standard, everyday police work in criminal investigation.

Huh? That's right: the best and most direct way to focus on and detain/incarcerate/deport criminal elements is by going after criminals using police work. Astounding notion!!! What a vast saving of time and resources compared to mass deportation, with the bonus that far fewer mistakes are made, and those we'd welcome to stay remain unmolested! Efficient, lawful, and respectful. How nice!

After all, as case after case after case shows, business, especially the construction, hospitality, health care and farming industries, need these human resources and cannot optimally function without them. Ditto the rotting strawberry patches in the UK, etc.

And that is the second tip: If migrant workers without papers are found, and you are so concerned, go to the domestic source of the problem over which you have full control: blame the employer and "string him up". Know why this is not the case? Ahem, I'm sure you do.
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom