• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 32

See above, which I have acknowledged re: ETA It wouldn't be too difficult to pursue it via the State of Washington Courts, as you state. Lumumba might not even need to be there in person.
I made no claim that the law stated that Lumumba needed to appear before a US court to seek payment of the award. He would need to hire a lawyer to represent him before a US court.

Here's an example of a French company suing a US Company in a US court relating to events that occured in Europe involving the US company ( a more complicated case than the Lumumba award). The French company's lawyers filed the case and appeared before the US court:


Why hasn't Lumumba's Italian lawyer arranged for a lawsuit against Knox in the US to collect the award?
 
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No random guy on the internet 'owns' me, thanks.
Totally apart from the issue of any posts I've ever made, you've been "owned" countless times: by @Andy_Ross on seamanship and maritime matters, by @Chris_Halkides on forensic science, by @Rolfe on biology, by @Stacyhs and @LondonJohn on general facts about the Knox case, by @Numbers on the ECHR, and, of course, @JayUtah on numerous subjects, including engineering, accident investigation, and your conspiracy-mongering. And those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head; there are many others.
 
I made no claim that the law stated that Lumumba needed to appear before a US court to seek payment of the award. He would need to hire a lawyer to represent him before a US court.

Here's an example of a French company suing a US Company in a US court relating to events that occured in Europe involving the US company ( a more complicated case than the Lumumba award). The French company's lawyers filed the case and appeared before the US court:


Why hasn't Lumumba's Italian lawyer arranged for a lawsuit against Knox in the US to collect the award?


That looks like a complex Company Law/MNC case with corporate lawyers on agreed costs or commission terms. Lumumba is likely a person of modest means and Pascelli his lawyer just about affordable and even pro bono, given the publicity as the upside [for him]. It makes sense for them to wait until everything is 100% finalised and can't be reversed or amended. Next step would be to file a claim through the US courts and then put in a bankruptcy petition if Knox continues to refuse to pay or can't pay.


.
 
Totally apart from the issue of any posts I've ever made, you've been "owned" countless times: by @Andy_Ross on seamanship and maritime matters, by @Chris_Halkides on forensic science, by @Rolfe on biology, by @Stacyhs and @LondonJohn on general facts about the Knox case, by @Numbers on the ECHR, and, of course, @JayUtah on numerous subjects, including engineering, accident investigation, and your conspiracy-mongering. And those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head; there are many others.


You can get urgent help here.




.
 
euroneighbour, what is the source for your information? I have searched HUDOC, and I have found no Communication or Decision that has a "Lumumba" except for this one Decision (failed application) from 1994: Patrick Lumumba v. Sweden, Application No. 22696/93. The individual was identified as a man of Kenyan citizenship who was born in 1959 and at the time of application serving a prison sentence in Tidaholm, Sweden. He had been convicted of several crimes over a period of years, the most serious being a 1991 conviction for assault, malicious damage, aggravated arson, and gross negligent manslaughter; the sentence was 10 years imprisonment. Sweden also began proceedings to deport him to Kenya, although he had a former Swedish spouse/partner and a daughter born of that relationship. His application was against his deportation to Kenya based on his relationship to Sweden. See:

https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng?i=001-1983

I am assuming that this Patrick Lumumba is NOT the person known as Patrick or Diya Lumumba in the Knox-Sollecito case. I haven't found any other HUDOC reference to a Lumumba.
The Patrick Lumumba, a boxer, who was a citizen of Kenya and had lived in Sweden and had been convicted of crimes there, died in Kenya around the year 2000, according to the first paragraphs of this Swedish media report:

 
Your claim that the Mafia influence in the Italian Judiciary is 'just a conspiracy theory' really does indicate your lack of the awareness of the wider world. Your saying it is because it's not in your radar doesn't make it so. I mean you are perfectly free to hold any opinion but do try not to censor other people who have a different world view than yourself.
I'm going to break this point out into a separate post so that any attempt by you to continue to evade and/or misinterpret it will be more apparent (although I'm reasonably certain that everyone else reading the thread has already figured it out).

First, again, here is the definition of the Motte and Bailey FallacyWP:

The motte-and-bailey fallacy (named after the motte-and-bailey castle) is a form of argument and an informal fallacy where an arguer conflates two positions that share similarities: one modest and easy to defend (the "motte") and one much more controversial and harder to defend (the "bailey"). The arguer advances the controversial position, but when challenged, insists that only the more modest position is being advanced. Upon retreating to the motte, the arguer may claim that the bailey has not been refuted (because the critic refused to attack the motte) or that the critic is unreasonable (by equating an attack on the bailey with an attack on the motte). [notes omitted]​

Your argument runs something along the lines of: "Knox and Sollecito were acquitted due to Mafia influence." When people point out that there is no credible evidence that this is the case, you accuse them of denying that the Italian judiciary has a Mafia influence problem. Thus, when your indefensible claim that Knox and Sollecito were acquitted due to Mafia influence ("the bailey") is attacked, you fallaciously retreat to the perfectly defensible, but only tangentially relevant, claim that the Italian judiciary has a Mafia influence problem ("the motte").

Finally, kindly stop falsely accusing me of having claimed that a perfectly reasonable belief in Mafia influence over the Italian judiciary is a conspiracy theory, when I have repeatedly and clearly stated that the conspiracy theory is your unevidenced claim that Knox and Sollecito were acquitted due to that influence.
 
I'm going to break this point out into a separate post so that any attempt by you to continue to evade and/or misinterpret it will be more apparent (although I'm reasonably certain that everyone else reading the thread has already figured it out).

First, again, here is the definition of the Motte and Bailey FallacyWP:

The motte-and-bailey fallacy (named after the motte-and-bailey castle) is a form of argument and an informal fallacy where an arguer conflates two positions that share similarities: one modest and easy to defend (the "motte") and one much more controversial and harder to defend (the "bailey"). The arguer advances the controversial position, but when challenged, insists that only the more modest position is being advanced. Upon retreating to the motte, the arguer may claim that the bailey has not been refuted (because the critic refused to attack the motte) or that the critic is unreasonable (by equating an attack on the bailey with an attack on the motte). [notes omitted]​

Your argument runs something along the lines of: "Knox and Sollecito were acquitted due to Mafia influence." When people point out that there is no credible evidence that this is the case, you accuse them of denying that the Italian judiciary has a Mafia influence problem. Thus, when your indefensible claim that Knox and Sollecito were acquitted due to Mafia influence ("the bailey") is attacked, you fallaciously retreat to the perfectly defensible, but only tangentially relevant, claim that the Italian judiciary has a Mafia influence problem ("the motte").

Finally, kindly stop falsely accusing me of having claimed that a perfectly reasonable belief in Mafia influence over the Italian judiciary is a conspiracy theory, when I have repeatedly and clearly stated that the conspiracy theory is your unevidenced claim that Knox and Sollecito were acquitted due to that influence.

I very clearly explained my reasoning. Let's try again.


  • A fact is found at trial.
  • The Appeal Court upholds that fact
  • The Supreme Court rubber stamps it.
  • If it accepts the appeal - i.e., not rubberstamped - the lower court got it materially wrong on a stated issue, it sends it back to the lower court with directions to correct the legal error it has detected.
  • The Supreme Court cannot hold a trial or find facts.
  • Its function is to ensure the legal process has been followed as per the Constitution and as argued by the Appellant
Do you follow that? If there is anything not clear, let's sort it out now before going on to the next step.

Please point out anything you have identified as a conspiracy theory.


.


.
 
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Pathetic. I was referring to the sheet. But then you knew that.
Were you? You didn't bother to say which of your claims you were referring to was rhe opinion of a "seasoned detective".

But, just to be clear, WHAT "seasoned detective" are you referring to? I've asked several times now. If you can't provide any evidence of this, then why not just admit it?

Apparently, you can't provide any evidence that Kercher was lying on a sheet, either. Why not just admit that, too?
 
I'm going to break this point out into a separate post so that any attempt by you to continue to evade and/or misinterpret it will be more apparent (although I'm reasonably certain that everyone else reading the thread has already figured it out).

First, again, here is the definition of the Motte and Bailey FallacyWP:

The motte-and-bailey fallacy (named after the motte-and-bailey castle) is a form of argument and an informal fallacy where an arguer conflates two positions that share similarities: one modest and easy to defend (the "motte") and one much more controversial and harder to defend (the "bailey"). The arguer advances the controversial position, but when challenged, insists that only the more modest position is being advanced. Upon retreating to the motte, the arguer may claim that the bailey has not been refuted (because the critic refused to attack the motte) or that the critic is unreasonable (by equating an attack on the bailey with an attack on the motte). [notes omitted]​

Your argument runs something along the lines of: "Knox and Sollecito were acquitted due to Mafia influence." When people point out that there is no credible evidence that this is the case, you accuse them of denying that the Italian judiciary has a Mafia influence problem. Thus, when your indefensible claim that Knox and Sollecito were acquitted due to Mafia influence ("the bailey") is attacked, you fallaciously retreat to the perfectly defensible, but only tangentially relevant, claim that the Italian judiciary has a Mafia influence problem ("the motte").

Finally, kindly stop falsely accusing me of having claimed that a perfectly reasonable belief in Mafia influence over the Italian judiciary is a conspiracy theory, when I have repeatedly and clearly stated that the conspiracy theory is your unevidenced claim that Knox and Sollecito were acquitted due to that influence.
I'm a bit confused by the particular application (Mafia + Italian Judicial System) of the Motte-and-Bailey fallacy argument.

First, what evidence is there that there is any Mafia influence on the Italian judiciary? There certainly have been allegations of Mafia influence on a few Italian politicians, but are there any such allegations of Mafia influence on any Italian judges? If so, are those judges in a particular region?

I would suggest that part of the problem with the Italian judiciary is not the Mafia, but the judiciary's cohesion and adherence to an authoritarian or inquisititorial legal philosophy. I suspect that Hellmann resigned after the Court of Appeals acquittal of Knox and Sollecito on the murder/rape charges because of his resistance to that philosophy. The judges that have resisted that philosophy to some extent and recognized, at least in part, the full range of Italian laws, including those that protect the rights of defense of suspects and defendants (accused persons) are the ones who have recognized the errors and miscarriages of justice in this case.
 
Stop talking rubbish. If I have an interest in shipping disasters that happen in my local waters or events that are news in England or elsewhere, then I bloody well will debate them and do not need your approval to do so.
Calling attention to the fact that your views are conspiracy theories is not preventing you from debating them. As you may have noticed, no one stopped you from holding forth on your claims in long-running threads on the Estonia and the Luton Airport carpark fire, despite the fact that those threads were properly moved to the Conspiracy Theories subforum, and properly treated as such by most other participants.

Think about it, the guy in the pub who never watches the news or reads books goes mad with rage at anyone who understands current affairs or intellectual issues better than himself. Intimidates them by calling them names because he has never been outside of his own small world of a pint and a fag; and rolled-up trousers at Clacton-on-Sea is the furthest away from home he's ever been.
"People who don't believe in my conspiracy theories are hopelessly ignorant and uncurious." :rolleyes:

Your claim that the Mafia influence in the Italian Judiciary is 'just a conspiracy theory' really does indicate your lack of the awareness of the wider world. Your saying it is because it's not in your radar doesn't make it so. I mean you are perfectly free to hold any opinion but do try not to censor other people who have a different world view than yourself.
Addressed in my previous post.

In future, please stick to the topic and not personal attack.
As has been explained to you ad nauseam, calling attention to the fact that you are advocating conspiracy theories is not a personal attack.
 
Yes Shaky was loudly named because when Sollecito turned up at the Questura demanding to be with Knox, the cops put them in a wired up waiting room.
She starts talking about Shaky at 6:49 in the recording. She is speaking in a normal voice. So, no... she didn't "loudly" say anything about Shaky. This is why your use of self-serving hyperbole is suspect.
The pair seemed aware they were being tapped as Knox spoke up to declare how dodgy Shaky was. They then spent the time laughing and joking.
Knox first mentioned Shaky in her Nov. 3 deposition taken at 2:45 pm. She describes how Shaky offered her a ride home from work one night and wanted her to have a drink with him in "thanks". She agreed saying she only had a half hour. She thought he'd take her to a bar, but he took her to his house. Once inside, she went into a room where other Italian men were watching TV but Shaky asked her to go to his room because he wanted to talk to her. Shaky shut the door and Amanda says she told him she wanted to go home. He kept insisting he wanted to get to know her, but she insisted she wanted to leave. He finally agreed to take her home.

Knox's recorded conversation was the NEXT day on Nov. 4 so she had already told the police all about Shaky. She said nothing new in the intercept. So your implying that she "loudly" named Shaky because the police were listening is not founded anything but your own imagination.

Debating with you is rather like this Monty Python sketch.
Debating with you is mostly disproving your rubbish like the above.

And you still haven't quoted and cited from Marasca that climbing the wall was impossible.
 
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Totally apart from the issue of any posts I've ever made, you've been "owned" countless times: by @Andy_Ross on seamanship and maritime matters, by @Chris_Halkides on forensic science, by @Rolfe on biology, by @Stacyhs and @LondonJohn on general facts about the Knox case, by @Numbers on the ECHR, and, of course, @JayUtah on numerous subjects, including engineering, accident investigation, and your conspiracy-mongering. And those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head; there are many others.
Some "owning" moments off the top of my head:
No bars under FR's window,
Cell towers rotate,
Knox flew home on a private jet,
Dr. Sollecito attended Rocco S's memorial,
Kercher was lying on a sheet,
The climbing video was doctored by the defense
 
That looks like a complex Company Law/MNC case with corporate lawyers on agreed costs or commission terms. Lumumba is likely a person of modest means and Pascelli his lawyer just about affordable and even pro bono, given the publicity as the upside [for him]. It makes sense for them to wait until everything is 100% finalised and can't be reversed or amended. Next step would be to file a claim through the US courts and then put in a bankruptcy petition if Knox continues to refuse to pay or can't pay.
But it doesn't make sense for Knox to "wait until everything is 100% finalised and can't be reversed or amended"? "
 
No sorry, you said despite Guede, being at least four to three inches shorter that Delfo, the tall gangly defence guy who tried to climb in Filomena's window but failed, that he would somehow make up for it in having longer arms by virtue of being an African gentleman, and yes, I called BS on you but it WAS your comment and people can call out on that type of outrageous claim based on someone's personal characteristics.
No. You claimed, incorrectly that:
Ricardo Pinella is Height: 1,84 m.

He is a good four inches taller than Guede,
Panella is the climber in the video. I pointed out that he is, in fact, 4cm, or 1.5in, taller than Guede. Anticipating that you would object that he was still taller than Guede, I also pointed out, sourced from a perfectly reputable journal, and reported on in that hotbed of racism and bigotry, Slate magazine, that Africans tend to have longer arms that Caucasians, my intended point being that their difference in reach was likely less than their 1.5in height difference would suggest:
According to his Eurobasket.com page, Rudy Guede is is 180cm (5'11) tall. So, assuming your 1.84m is correct, Panella is a good four centimeters (1.5in) taller than Guede. Further, Guede, being African, likely has longer arms than an average Caucasian male of the same height (source, just because I've seen your attempts to throw out red herrings by creating faux controversies in the past).
You, however, displaying your usual level of reading comprehension, totally missed the hilited, and responded as follows:
Great logic! "Guede is African so of course, he is a natural athlete and surely has extraordinarily long arms, so of course he is better at scaling twelve-and-half-feet walls than any accomplished rock climber four inches taller. Stands to reason, don't it? Case closed, M'Lud."
Why don't you explain why you decided to write this incredibly dishonest response based on my merely saying Guede likely had "longer" arms? That's a direct question; kindly answer. And note that I didn't say he likely had longer arms that Panella; I said he likely had longer arms than a Caucasian of the same height.

Further, I never wrote anything comparing Guede to Delfo; you just pulled that out of an orifice so you could try to keep the canard where I was somehow implying that Guede must have "extraordinarily long arms" alive. (Likely because you did, finally, grudgingly, acknowledge your error about the height difference between Guede and Panella after two or three other people had pointed it out to you.)

By that measure, I presume you believe Lumumba could also have nipped up the wall and broken in as well, given he was born in Zaire.
See above.

Of course it was a ridiculous claim BY YOU. . .
I stand by my assertion, and everyone else reading the thread can see what my point was, and how you attempted to twist it, just as I predicted you would.

and how interesting you try to turn it round into 'How dare you call me the r-word?'
I said no such thing; you behaved more-or-less as I predicted, although I wasn't expecting you to be so dishonest about it.

Please provide the citation of where I supposedly cried 'misogynist'.
As you know, the search function is disabled. I did find one post where someone quoted you accusing several posters of going all "macho" on you, however, the link to that post is broken, which likely means it was AAHed. And even if search were enabled, that and any other posts that were sent to AAH would not be searchable, either from within the forum or from without.

You really do know how to to scrape the barrel.
:id:I'm really glad I have Amazon Prime; it's saved me so much shipping on replacement irony meters lately.

My feelings aren't hurt.
Several of your recent posts in this thread suggest otherwise.

I am exercising the right of reply.
Despite your repeated claims to the contrary, no one is attempting to stop you from replying. Pointing out the inaccuracies, logical errors, and, in some cases, rank dishonesty in your posts does not constitute an attempt to silence you.

I am trying to help you reevaluate how you respond to people who might hold a different view from yourself . . .
By falsely accusing me of racism. :rolleyes: Further, as has been pointed out to you in the past, this is a skeptics' forum. If you don't want your views challenged, then you shouldn't express them here. And, finally, as usual, you are not the teacher here.

. . . and have different interests.
This was a non sequitur the first however many time you said it, and it's still a non sequitur.

It is really nothing to feel threatened by. Honest!
As has also been pointed out to you in the past, no one here feels threatened by your conspiracy theories or other misapprehensions. That's just the usual woo-woos' attempt to pretend that they've got their critics running scared because they can't handle the truth. :rolleyes: What we generally feel is some mixture of amusement, exasperation, and annoyance (and occasional anger, as when victims' graves are pissed on :mad:).
 
I made no claim that the law stated that Lumumba needed to appear before a US court to seek payment of the award. He would need to hire a lawyer to represent him before a US court.

Here's an example of a French company suing a US Company in a US court relating to events that occured in Europe involving the US company ( a more complicated case than the Lumumba award). The French company's lawyers filed the case and appeared before the US court:


Why hasn't Lumumba's Italian lawyer arranged for a lawsuit against Knox in the US to collect the award?
Here's a general statement from the US Department of State* on the issue of enforcement of a foreign court civil judgment in the US:

Enforcement of a Foreign Judgment in the U.S.​


Enforcement of judgments issued by foreign courts in the United States is governed by the laws of the states. Enforcement cannot be accomplished by means of letters rogatory in the United States. Under U.S. law, an individual seeking to enforce a foreign judgment, decree or order in this country must file suit before a competent court. The court will determine whether to recognize and enforce the foreign judgment.

So all the complaining by PGP about this issue of Knox not paying the award to Lumumba on the basis of a foreign court judgment is simply nonsense. To date, Patrick Diya Lumumba has not taken any action in the US to collect the award, as far as is publicly known.

* travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/internl-judicial-asst/Enforcement-of-Judgements.html
 
I'm a bit confused by the particular application (Mafia + Italian Judicial System) of the Motte-and-Bailey fallacy argument.

First, what evidence is there that there is any Mafia influence on the Italian judiciary? There certainly have been allegations of Mafia influence on a few Italian politicians, but are there any such allegations of Mafia influence on any Italian judges? If so, are those judges in a particular region?

I would suggest that part of the problem with the Italian judiciary is not the Mafia, but the judiciary's cohesion and adherence to an authoritarian or inquisititorial legal philosophy. I suspect that Hellmann resigned after the Court of Appeals acquittal of Knox and Sollecito on the murder/rape charges because of his resistance to that philosophy. The judges that have resisted that philosophy to some extent and recognized, at least in part, the full range of Italian laws, including those that protect the rights of defense of suspects and defendants (accused persons) are the ones who have recognized the errors and miscarriages of justice in this case.

Well, the term 'mafia' can be used in two different ways. One, to mean serious organised crime and two, the much more historic one of simply 'family' as the word translates. As you know, Italy is a modern country and not so long a go it used to be a whole load of different regions and provinces with their own self rule. Different tribes and what have you. So these families would have codes of loyalty, honour and mutual benefit, and they'd be very insular, in particular the island regions, such as Sicily. Also in Italy there is a strong fad for freemasonry, again not in itself particularly sinister, except that the Catholic Church disapproves.

As for Hellmann, my insider intelligence is as follows:


Pratillo Hellmann is wealthy but he is definitely not among the richest families in Italy. The word "rich" should be probably employed for another magnitude. He has a villa in Cortina d'Ampezzo, owns several collection cars and is a member of some exclusive clubs (he was a speaker at the Perugia vintage car collectors association). But I can't say he's extraordinarily rich. I can say he's extraordinarily masonic, being that the Hellmann family descends from the Ranier-Hellmann family in Padua.

Maresca had indeed an option to request impeachment. Galati & Costagliola had the option too. Mignini, instead, wanted to do that but he had no office power to do it

It's worth to note that the first official Masonic lodge in Italy was founded in Venice, I think in 1805 (?), was named the Grande Oriente d'Italia, but the founders were four persons, one of them was Mr. Bernardino Renier, the first husband of the mentioned lady; Bernardino dies early, the lady takes over his masonic prestige and would later change name and marry the Austrian officer.

Anyway there is also this suspicion tha part of the money came directly from Trump. Why? The reason is that, Trump appeared to know in advance about the outcome of the Perugian appeal in 2011.

Both Trump & Knox herself publicly admitted that Trump "helped" the family. And she thanked Trump for his support in the Netflix documentary. But actually - even recently - Knox unwittingly pointed out that Trump would have "helped" her rather strangely, by calling for a boycott of Italy unless she was acquitted and so possibly just attracting anti-Americanism. but Trump is an opportunist character; he doesn't pick any tough stance on principle; he wouldn't call for a boycott of Italy unless he expected that was just going to be publicity for him. Now, if you look at the timings of Trump "boycott" declaration, you'll find out curious things one curious thing is that Knox lies about it. You can see that she lies when she contradicts herself flatly: she thanks him in the Netflix documentary (which she shot in 2014) and has no criticism about his aggressive boycott call; but on the WSH column she tells a completely different story, saying that his declaration has raised anti-Americanism "in the courtroom" and therefore pit the courtroom against her. What she says clearly nonsense, since Hellmann acquitted her of murder just after Trump's declaration.

So I'll tell you some "inside news" I forgot to tell you: I found out that one reliable "source" has told about Pratillo Hellmann's bribe.

The source has been Pratillo Hellmann's lawyer. He said - in an unsolicited conversation - that Hellmann received on 500.000 US $ on a bank account. He pointed out that it was US dollars, not Euros.

He told that directly to Mignini while sitting at a table at a Perugian pub. Basically suggesting it, thus, I suppose, as a track. Unfortunately neither Mignini or the lawyers friends sitting there were able to record him - it was not expected.

There are also other informal declaration that I know were made, providing other pieces of information. The lawyer didn't know the overall amount of the bribe but said he knew Zanetti was corrupted as well. What we know from other sources is that the overall amount of the bribe was about 2 million Euros.

The lawyer made this statement only 1 month ago.

No. There must be a number of other people.

At least 5 people were corrupted

The lawyer says this because this is Perugia, Italy. A place where people can't really "hide" thing. We call these kind of secrets "a Pulcinella's secret". Also the Narducci - Monster of Florence involvement was a Pulcinella's secret. Actually the 2 million figure was a figure already known and talked about days before the verdict. And it was the reason why a crowd gathered in front of the court chanting "vergogna"

In the complicated parochial relations between people of Perugia, people know that there are "secrets" and they have to keep some things under the table, but this is only on a certain public level, since everybody knows they are keeping things under the table, so they tell different things when they talk or socialize, they talk at different "levels"

Yes, but the Kercher family is also making some serious strategic mistakes. One of the serious "mistakes" over the latest times - let me say it clearly - is to keep Maresca as their attorney. But Maresca's behaviour shows that actually he's not "skeptical". He wants to get out from the case. he is sick of the case. With the 5th chambers verdict Maresca realized the political nature of the case he would be handling.

But this type of case, so typically high-profile and "political" within the judiciary, is not what the Maresca law firma wants. It is not the kind of law firma that can do that. It's not that Maresca is "too small". It's that - this is my educated guess and understanding, based on observing his environment - he and his clients are too invested in keeping good relations with too many subjects.
He just can't go to war against the Florentine political establishment

There are lawyers in Italy - both "big" and "small" ones - who would be ready to pick a completely different strategy. I know some, and there are famous ones. But they are not Maresca. You need a different kind of "activist" lawyer

Maresca was a good attorney, until the last phase. What Maresca did was - in many ways not differently than what Ghirga did - he lowered the guard before the game was completely finished. Assuming that there was nothing left to do. We say he "pulled the oars into the boat", assuming the boat was just about to arrive. Maresca in fact made a couple of very serious errors during the trials.

The first capital error was committed on the Perugian appeal, it was his choice to not impeach the Hellmann court.

He is from Padua. In Veneto. The name Hellmann comes from the name that the illustrious Venetian lady (the widow of Renier) acquired from his second husband, who was an officer of the Austrian army (at the time Venice was part of the Austrian Empire). The officer, Mr. Hellmann, had a status significantly lower in prestige than the noble Mr. Renier and his wife, therefore the really "important" person was the Lady, who is also remembered for having donated an art collection to the city. The lady was quite important and I guess that's why the name "Hellmann" seems to keep on living as a second family name (his surname is Pratillo Hellmann; therefore he's a person with two surnames). The "second" place suggests that the surname was matrilinear, comes from the lady's branch (after she acquired it from the Austrian officer, it became the matrilinear name).



That's the inside story as to why Hellmann resigned. and why he was never impeached for his subversive behaviour.




.
 
She starts talking about Shaky at 6:49 in the recording. She is speaking in a normal voice. So, no... she didn't "loudly" say anything about Shaky. This is why your use of self-serving hyperbole is suspect.

Knox first mentioned Shaky in her Nov. 3 deposition taken at 2:45 pm. She describes how Shaky offered her a ride home from work one night and wanted her to have a drink with him in "thanks". She agreed saying she only had a half hour. She thought he'd take her to a bar, but he took her to his house. Once inside, she went into a room where other Italian men were watching TV but Shaky asked her to go to his room because he wanted to talk to her. Shaky shut the door and Amanda says she told him she wanted to go home. He kept insisting he wanted to get to know her, but she insisted she wanted to leave. He finally agreed to take her home.

Knox's recorded conversation was the NEXT day on Nov. 4 so she had already told the police all about Shaky. She said nothing new in the intercept. So your implying that she "loudly" named Shaky because the police were listening is not founded anything but your own imagination.


Debating with you is mostly disproving your rubbish like the above.

And you still haven't quoted and cited from Marasca that climbing the wall was impossible.


You miss the point. The acoustics in that waiting room was poor. All the phone-tapper could hear was the whirring of the air-conditioning and other sundry noises inhibiting a clear sound of what was being said. Then, suddenly, as clear as a bell, Knox pitched her voice to ensure her diatribe against Shaky could be heard by anyone eavesdropping.


.
 
No. You claimed, incorrectly that:

Panella is the climber in the video. I pointed out that he is, in fact, 4cm, or 1.5in, taller than Guede. Anticipating that you would object that he was still taller than Guede, I also pointed out, sourced from a perfectly reputable journal, and reported on in that hotbed of racism and bigotry, Slate magazine, that Africans tend to have longer arms that Caucasians, my intended point being that their difference in reach was likely less than their 1.5in height difference would suggest:

You, however, displaying your usual level of reading comprehension, totally missed the hilited, and responded as follows:

Why don't you explain why you decided to write this incredibly dishonest response based on my merely saying Guede likely had "longer" arms? That's a direct question; kindly answer. And note that I didn't say he likely had longer arms that Panella; I said he likely had longer arms than a Caucasian of the same height.

Further, I never wrote anything comparing Guede to Delfo; you just pulled that out of an orifice so you could try to keep the canard where I was somehow implying that Guede must have "extraordinarily long arms" alive. (Likely because you did, finally, grudgingly, acknowledge your error about the height difference between Guede and Panella after two or three other people had pointed it out to you.)


See above.


I stand by my assertion, and everyone else reading the thread can see what my point was, and how you attempted to twist it, just as I predicted you would.


I said no such thing; you behaved more-or-less as I predicted, although I wasn't expecting you to be so dishonest about it.


As you know, the search function is disabled. I did find one post where someone quoted you accusing several posters of going all "macho" on you, however, the link to that post is broken, which likely means it was AAHed. And even if search were enabled, that and any other posts that were sent to AAH would not be searchable, either from within the forum or from without.


:id:I'm really glad I have Amazon Prime; it's saved me so much shipping on replacement irony meters lately.


Several of your recent posts in this thread suggest otherwise.


Despite your repeated claims to the contrary, no one is attempting to stop you from replying. Pointing out the inaccuracies, logical errors, and, in some cases, rank dishonesty in your posts does not constitute an attempt to silence you.


By falsely accusing me of racism. :rolleyes: Further, as has been pointed out to you in the past, this is a skeptics' forum. If you don't want your views challenged, then you shouldn't express them here. And, finally, as usual, you are not the teacher here.


This was a non sequitur the first however many time you said it, and it's still a non sequitur.


As has also been pointed out to you in the past, no one here feels threatened by your conspiracy theories or other misapprehensions. That's just the usual woo-woos' attempt to pretend that they've got their critics running scared because they can't handle the truth. :rolleyes: What we generally feel is some mixture of amusement, exasperation, and annoyance (and occasional anger, as when victims' graves are pissed on :mad:).


Thank you for explaining yourself. I think that highlights the difference between you and me (neither good nor bad). You have a smug certainty that Guede, as an African, has 'longer arms' because you claim you once read it somewhere in a mainstream magazine article, whereas I have the breadth of knowledge to know that there are at least 62 distinct ethnic groups in Africa, hence why I thought your claim a remarkably stupid one.

You've confessed, or maybe that is the wrong word as it implies elements of apology, perhaps 'proclaimed' is a better one, that you have a blind faith in Knox' & Sollecito's innocence. Now pitting your 'inner certainty' and 'intuition' against my logical, mathematical and objective mindset is going to be a similar situation in a Jehovah's-Witness-meets-scientist scenario - not that I am making a value judgement as to who is good or bad - wherein the best thing they can say to each other is, 'Not today, thanks!'




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This topic is under Trials & Errors, so no, I am not going to discuss blind faith and intuition.
You have been provided with a huge amount of evidence that the investigation and trial were hopelessly flawed, yet you continually attempt to handwave that away by falsely claiming that your critics are acting out of "faith," "intuition," "emotion," etc. Fail.

You want me to pit logic, reason . .
If you have logic and reason on your side, then how is it that you continually commit so many logical errors? That's a direct question; kindly answer. And please don't deny that you do; if necessary, I'll start listing examples.

and due process (that goes back a thousand years to Anglo-Saxon law [well, in the UK, Roman /Napoleonic Law in Europe]) against your blind faith.
So you assume that because a legal system is old, it must necessarily always come to the correct conclusion? Exactly who is exhibiting blind faith here, Vixen?

Further, you argue that we should unquestioningly trust that Italy's justice system got it right when Knox and Sollecito were convicted, but then you deploy all sorts of special pleadingWPs about how Italy's justice system got it wrong whenever the pair were acquitted on appeal.

Your argument that Italy's system is incredibly flawed seems to be based on something you read in the US pro-Knox US press promulgating tales of 53-hour torture sessions.
No. You just pulled that out of an orifice. I've already given the example of how the simultaneous civil trial allowed Knox's coerced confession to be seen by the judges even though the Court of Cassation had ruled it inadmissible for the criminal trial. But you're just ignoring that, because it doesn't fit the guilter narrative that there are no significant problems with the Italian justice system, and anyone who says otherwise is just spouting pro-Knox propaganda. :rolleyes:

Further, and this is something I've been meaning to bring up for a while, here is an excerpt from the article "Amanda Knox Part 4: 'Caught Between Two Traditions': Italy's Hybrid Legal System," by Martha Grace Duncan, which appeared in the Harvard Journal of Law and Gender:
. . .some aspects of Italian criminal procedure that have been vehemently criticized include, inter alia, the concurrence of civil and criminal trials before the same judges the flagrant use of character evidence, the failure to sequester those sitting in judgment, and the exposure of defendants to double jeopardy.​
In contrast to these critics, some comparative law scholars have argued that the continental legal system, including its Italian iteration, is as likely to achieve justice as the American system, albeit through a different path. One such scholar is James Q. Whitman, a law professor at Yale. In his article, Presumption of Innocence or Presumption of Mercy: Weighing Two Western Modes of Justice, he suggests that the American and continental criminal systems both have virtues—the former doing a better job of protecting the innocent from conviction, the latter of being merciful to the convicted criminal. He believes that the United States would do well to emulate the more humane approach of the continental model, specifically by showing more concern for the guilty.[notes omitted]​
Now, you don't have to agree with any of the above. But don't expect to keep parroting your aforementioned false guilter narrative that criticisms of the Italian justice system are nothing but pro-Knox propaganda and not be called on it.

All I can say is that you are easily persuaded - an advertisers dream! - as you seem to accept it unquestioningly.
"Everyone who thinks Knox and Sollecito are innocent is a blind sheep." :rolleyes: Again, you've been provided with copious evidence for why we believe Knox and Sollecito are innocent, yet you dismiss, handwave, or simply ignore it, and continue to insist that your critics are simply acting irrationally.

If I were to say to you, I think Ted Bundy is innocent. You are going to say, why on earth do I care what you think?
No. Actually, in this case, I'd say, "No, his guilt is beyond any possible doubt; in an attempt to delay his execution, he confessed to several additional murders and led police to the victims' bodies."

However, if we were to take an example where there is at least a shadow of a doubt, I would not, as you simply assume, just dismiss your opinion on the grounds that the accused was convicted. As I mentioned before, I would ask, "What is your evidence?"
 
Direct question, Vixen, and a much better example: Do you believe Cameron Todd WillinghamWP was guilty? And kindly don't evade the issue by claiming unfamiliarity with the case.

(Note: From now on, I'll be breaking all direct questions out as separate posts, in order to give you less of an opportunity to pretend not to notice them.)
 

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