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Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

That seems to be the thrust of this commentary on the 'Unherd' website:

Gender recognition certificates are now meaningless

This was only to be expected. These people have been so steeped in this nonsense, and so utterly convinced of their own moral and legal rectitude, that they cannot possibly turn on a dime in ten days. They've been proselytising it for years, not only unchallenged but encouraged by authority, and doing that in an aggressive and hectoring manner. The realisation that they have been in the wrong all along is going to come hard to them, and probably slowly.

There has to be continuing pressure from the sex-realist side of this to ensure that the supertanker completes its 180° turn as quickly and in as good order as possible, but it's going to take a lot of effort and probably some high-profile legal cases.
 
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Jim Crow, Not giving women the right to vote. Americans stole land from native Americans and put them on reservations.
You're confusing needs and wants. In those cases, the majority decided their wants outweighed the needs of others, much as TRAs think their wants outweigh the needs of women.
 
There may well be times when "the rare transwoman" will not be asked to leave a women's bathroom. The important thing is that women must retain the right to ask any male to leave, for any reason or none. Otherwise any man who likes can come in with no repercussions. This has been explained multiple times.

When we're discussing changing rooms, showers, dormitories, athletics events, rape counselling sessions, hospital wards.... For goodness sake, get a grip.
How are you going to ensure that trans men are not being asked to leave women's bathrooms?
 
How are you going to ensure that trans men are not being asked to leave women's bathrooms?

We don't have to ensure that. If a woman has masculinised herself sufficiently so as to be causing alarm in a woman's bathroom it is entirely appropriate to exclude her. That is part of the judgment. It was something I did not see coming, but it's there in black and white.

The judgment went on to say that the transman was still not legally permitted to go into the men's bathroom, so there was a danger that she (and I think also extremely feminised men) might have nowhere to go, which was also unacceptable. They recommended that service providers consider making more single-occupancy unisex facilities available for this eventuality.

Of course the judges could not say that such women are legally permitted in the men's room. But we can all see the obvious, practical solution. If the woman is so masculinised that other women code her as male, she will attract no remark whatsoever in the men's room so long as she simply goes into the cubicle, comes out, washes her hands and leaves, without looking at anyone or speaking. Which appears to be normal, accepted behaviour in the men's room.

One might also suggest that such women can use the disabled toilet. There are very few of them, and most disabled toilets are empty most of the time anyway. But in practice, even though she isn't legally allowed in the men's, she can obviously go there. It's what she wants, so her best course of action is simply to do that and say nothing about it.

The judgment makes it entirely clear that a woman who objects to Buck Angel in the women's room is in the right.
 
We don't have to ensure that. If a woman has masculinised herself sufficiently so as to be causing alarm in a woman's bathroom it is entirely appropriate to exclude her. That is part of the judgment. It was something I did not see coming, but it's there in black and white.

The judgment went on to say that the transman was still not legally permitted to go into the men's bathroom, so there was a danger that she (and I think also extremely feminised men) might have nowhere to go, which was also unacceptable. They recommended that service providers consider making more single-occupancy unisex facilities available for this eventuality.

Of course the judges could not say that such women are legally permitted in the men's room. But we can all see the obvious, practical solution. If the woman is so masculinised that other women code her as male, she will attract no remark whatsoever in the men's room so long as she simply goes into the cubicle, comes out, washes her hands and leaves, without looking at anyone or speaking. Which appears to be normal, accepted behaviour in the men's room.

One might also suggest that such women can use the disabled toilet. There are very few of them, and most disabled toilets are empty most of the time anyway. But in practice, even though she isn't legally allowed in the men's, she can obviously go there. It's what she wants, so her best course of action is simply to do that and say nothing about it.

The judgment makes it entirely clear that a woman who objects to Buck Angel in the women's room is in the right.
Ok. Can you point me to which part of the judgement says this? I had a look through but couldn't spot it, but I was probably looking for the wrong keywords.
 
I can't say that's much clearer as it's very vague about "some circumstances".

I think the relevant part of the judgement is paragraph 221, under "Separate and single sex services", which ends:

Moreover, women living in the male gender could also be excluded under paragraph 28 without this amounting to gender reassignment discrimination. This might be considered proportionate where reasonable objection is taken to their presence, for example, because the gender reassignment process has given them a masculine appearance or attributes to which reasonable objection might be taken in the context of the women-only service being provided. Their exclusion would amount to unlawful gender reassignment discrimination not sex discrimination absent this exception.
 
The trick is determining who actually needs what, and who is just being unpleasant and unreasonable. Since the extremes of both sides represent themselves that way, it's a hard balancing act.

Do women actually need to kick the rare transwoman out? Not really. Does a biologically intact transwoman need to be in a restroom that doesn't have urinals? Not really. If they are okay with their body as-is, there should be no issue with being around others with similar bodies.
I'm really curious. Just how often do women go into a public restroom and find a trans-person in there? My guess is almost never. And are they really sure of that person's biological sex? And was it an inconvenience? How did they adjust? Did they leave and come back? Did they stay and use another stall?

I don't disagree with sex segregated sports. I believe girls sports is a benefit to girls and society as a whole. But I'm totally unconvinced that we need laws to prevent a trans person from using a public restroom that others might see as misgendered.
 
I can't say that's much clearer as it's very vague about "some circumstances".

I think the relevant part of the judgement is paragraph 221, under "Separate and single sex services", which ends:

That's the passage, I think. I remember that Lady Falkner went into some detail about it in her first interview on the issue. What I can't find is the reference to this also being the case for extremely feminised men, but since it's in the interim guidelines I presume it's there somewhere.

It remains to be seen how this plays out in practice. I think if everyone does the reasonable thing, the reasonable thing being not to try to enter facilities where they are not permitted unless they are absolutely 100% sure that they won't be clocked and don't do anything to draw attention to themselves, all will be well. The main issue at the moment seems to be people insisting that they'll simply go where they like regardless, and people bringing up edge cases to assert that the whole thing is unworkable therefore they are justified in going wherever they like.
 
I'm really curious. Just how often do women go into a public restroom and find a trans-person in there? My guess is almost never. And are they really sure of that person's biological sex? And was it an inconvenience? How did they adjust? Did they leave and come back? Did they stay and use another stall?

I don't disagree with sex segregated sports. I believe girls sports is a benefit to girls and society as a whole. But I'm totally unconvinced that we need laws to prevent a trans person from using a public restroom that others might see as misgendered.

Your guess is wildly out of line with reality. And I am talking about situations where I am 100% sure of that person's sex. It was an inconvenience because the presence of a male in a women-only space is a violation of modesty, dignity and propriety. Which you don't recognise of course, but that's irrelevant.

I left as fast as I possibly could, and didn't go back. In one case when I saw a man in a red frock striding towards the door to the Ladies room, I didn't go in at all. And when I say didn't go back, I mean ever. I have become accustomed to driving to the theatre, sitting through the performance including the interval, then driving home, without visiting the toilet. Sometimes up to six hours. However, I have written to the theatre asking if they intend from now on to manage the facility marked as for women as being for women only.

It is an even greater "inconvenience" for women belonging to a number of minority religious groups, who are constrained from going out into public places because of the entitled behaviour of obvious men going into women-only spaces, as they are forbidden on religious grounds from using intimate spaces where men are permitted. But then you presumably dismiss any religious reason too.
 
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Jim Crow, Not giving women the right to vote. Americans stole land from native Americans and put them on reservations.
Rubbish
Jim Crow laws and the way Native Americans were treated was nothing to do with their numbers, it was because of racial prejudice.
Women were not a minority, they were discriminated against because they were perceived to be weaker, less intelligent and less worldly.
 
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Ok. I promise to go through your list of links when I get off my jobsite (where I am getting exactly jack ◊◊◊◊ done today, lol).

I looked at the first one. The guy is not trans, and never claimed to be. This guy (and the criminal charges he faces) exists with or without adopting the proposed trans policies in either direction.
Congratulations, you just made EC's point.
 
The post I was referring to was clearly a follow up to your earlier post in which you claimed the SCOTUK ruling meant you now have Self ID. That is a unique takeaway.
No it isn’t, it’s in plain black and white that to fall under the equality act that you do not need a GRC - have you not read the judgement?
 
No it isn’t, it’s in plain black and white that to fall under the equality act that you do not need a GRC - have you not read the judgement?
It's a bit more nuanced than that.

The protected characteristic under the Equality Act is gender reassignment and IIRC that includes intending to undergo gender reassignment. So it covers those who have not yet gone under gender reassignment, which doesn't sit well with Self ID. :unsure:
 
It's a bit more nuanced than that.

The protected characteristic under the Equality Act is gender reassignment and IIRC that includes intending to undergo gender reassignment. So it covers those who have not yet gone under gender reassignment, which doesn't sit well with Self ID. :unsure:

Here you go:

A person has the protected characteristic of gender
reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is
undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process)
for the purpose of reassigning the person’s sex by changing
physiological or other attributes of sex

I'm not sure how different saying you're proposing to undergo a process is from self ID, in practice.
 
Jim Crow, Not giving women the right to vote. Americans stole land from native Americans and put them on reservations.
Bad examples. (1) Women don't fit because they're half the population. (2) The treatment of Native Americans was driven by so-called Manifest Destiny. Your comment wasn't based on fact.
 

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