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Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

I suppose they could be forbidden as a condition of parole but that's besides the point.
No they probably couldn't. Maaaybe as a parole condition, but that is basically still being under semi-control of the State, not having served their sentence. No one is forbidden to walk on a street.
I'm just trying to get self-id advocates to grasp the implications of their position.
Then it would be faster to listen to the responses.

Self ID is sufficient to acknowledge the person is transgender. It is not an all-access pass into the girls showers (override sex segregation, in theprestige's words). We simply need to legitimize sex segregation and the limits of gender idemtification. It really ain't as complicated as you are making it out to be.
 
If he ain't interfering with you, what's the problem? You just don't like his appearance?
Voyeurs don't interfere with the targets of their voyeurism. Does that make it OK? If non-trans males don't interfere with females in bathrooms, can they then enter those bathrooms?

Can you grasp the idea that the presence of a male in a woman's bathroom is a problem in and of itself, regardless of what that male is doing? Do you disagree with this idea?
And can we please drop this inane extreme anomaly transwoman thing? Eddie Hall ain't in your bathroom.
He's in a woman's bathroom. Not sure why it needs to be Emily's in order to be worth discussing.
 
Self ID is sufficient to acknowledge the person is transgender. It is not an all-access pass into the girls showers (override sex segregation, in theprestige's words). We simply need to legitimize sex segregation and the limits of gender idemtification. It really ain't as complicated as you are making it out to be.
It must be complicated, because I don't think you've ever said what those limits should be. If it were simple, there would be no excuse for you to not have done so already. So tell us: when can sex segregation be overriden for a trans person? You say it shouldn't be on the basis of self ID, but then what is the basis for it?
 
Agreed, our SCOTUS shot down Roe, so we can predict which way they will go.
I don't want to get into a big derail here, but I do think it's important to point out that SCOTUS was challenged with respect to Roe on the basis of a prior interpretation of existing amendments. Roe got into place because a prior court interpreted a line in the 14th amendment such that it banning abortion was deemed to be depriving a person of liberty without due process. Opposition to that interpretation has been around since it was first made, with opponents viewing that abortion deprives a person of life without due process (in this case, the person in question is the fetus - let's not get into whether that view holds water here). The overturning of Roe rests upon the view the ability to terminate a human life is not, and has never been, a privacy-based right. SCOTUS ruled that the prior interpretation was inappropriate and that laws regarding abortion were not a matter of constitutionally protected liberty. They passed determinations regarding abortion back to the states to make laws as they deemed appropriate for their constituents.

I don't like the result of that decision, but I don't disagree with the legal basis for the ruling. Basing the entire thing on a challengeable interpretation of privacy as an implied component of liberty was shaky to begin with. If congress had done it's damned job and actually made an actual LAW, passed as legislation, we'd be in an entirely different situation. Congress still has the ability to create an actual law regarding abortion that would be applicable throughout the entire country - and as a law it would be massively less subject to reinterpretation. In order to overturn such a law, challengers would need to get SCOTUS to agree that having a law defining when abortion is and is not allowable is in and of itself unconstitutional.

There's a parallel with Title IX here, where some courts as well as Biden (via EO) interpreted the word "sex" to mean "gender identity". That interpretation is challengeable - and in this case I completely agree with Trump's interpretation that sex means sex, it does not mean special feelings inside one's brain.
But in the here and now, my fair State has its laws laid out bare, and my Governor literally incorporated it into law in such a way as to make it extra difficult to be easily flipped. Socially, sex and gender are virtually the same, with interpretation favoring gender as the operative concept.
Out of curiosity - is it actually law? I mean, is there actually a legislatively passed statute that expressly equates sex and gender identity such that access to single sex spaces, services, and athletics is based on a person's self-perception of themselves? Or is it an interpretation incorporated via governor order, comparable to an EO?

If it's actually a for-realsies law, then there's some footing in NJ for this to stay in place until overturned by legislative act. Although it definitely puts NJ schools at risk, given that the current executive interpretation of "sex" in Title IX has reverted back to actually meaning biological sex. Doesn't mean NJ can't run with their law, but it does mean that their schools could lose federal funding.
Agreed, it's the entirety of the discussion. Woman has two primary definitions that I cited upthread: adult human female, and person who thinks they are, +/-. Which one prevails is the whole shebang, or maybe (as I advocate) a mash-up with clear limitations.
One of those definitions is literal, the other is figurative. Your view of a mash-up essentially allows a figurative, metaphorical meaning to have as much weight in policy as a literal meaning.

As an illustration of the challenge your approach causes, let's look at definitions for the word "citizen". Let's NOT get into a derail about this, it's intended solely to highlight the implicit contradiction of trying to simultaneously hold a literal and a figurative meaning in policy. Here are the two definitions that are pertinent:
  • a native or naturalized person who owes allegiance to a government and is entitled to protection from it
  • an inhabitant of a city or town
If we were to try to simultaneously hold both of those as true in policy, then there would end up being confusion because it leads to contradictory outcomes. For example, if the figurative meaning were held as true, it would imply that anyone who lives in a town in the US therefore has the right to vote, and has full constitutional protections, and cannot be removed from the country because they now have a legal right to be here on the basis that the live here regardless of whether they ever had legal standing to be in the country. Allowing that figurative meaning to hold any power at all in policy would completely undermine and invalidate every single immigration law we have.

That's pretty much the same thing that happens when you allow the figurative meaning of woman to hold power in policy - it undermines and invalidates every single law or statute we have that grants equality or protection to females.
 
No they probably couldn't. Maaaybe as a parole condition, but that is basically still being under semi-control of the State, not having served their sentence. No one is forbidden to walk on a street.

Then it would be faster to listen to the responses.

Self ID is sufficient to acknowledge the person is transgender. It is not an all-access pass into the girls showers (override sex segregation, in theprestige's words). We simply need to legitimize sex segregation and the limits of gender idemtification. It really ain't as complicated as you are making it out to be.

If sex segregation is to be maintained (you keep flipflopping on this), then why is there any need for a limit on gender identification? Knock yourselves out, you ain't getting into the girls' lavvies whatever you do.
 
Voyeurs don't interfere with the targets of their voyeurism. Does that make it OK? If non-trans males don't interfere with females in bathrooms, can they then enter those bathrooms?
They shouldn't, no. But the available data suggests the conundrum is imaginary, so I'm not losing a ton of sleep.

How many other imaginary conundrums are you wringing your hands about? Anacondas slithering up from the toilet bowls?
Can you grasp the idea that the presence of a male in a woman's bathroom is a problem in and of itself, regardless of what that male is doing? Do you disagree with this idea?
I get it. The presence of some males in a men's room is a problem in and of itself too.
He's in a woman's bathroom. Not sure why it needs to be Emily's in order to be worth discussing.
Is non-anal retentive interpretation of the English language a bar too high today?
 
Can you grasp the idea that the presence of a male in a woman's bathroom is a problem in and of itself, regardless of what that male is doing? Do you disagree with this idea?

This is how the law stands here.
1745592920151.png
Considerations of privacy and decency require that separate facilities be provided for men and women. Sneering and scoffing and saying "leave him alone he's not doing you any harm" is the reaction of a misogynistic male who doesn't even want to think about what women feel about this. But the law acknowledges women's modesty, and makes provision for it.
 
They shouldn't, no. But the available data suggests the conundrum is imaginary, so I'm not losing a ton of sleep.
I don't think you understand my question. The data reflect reported crimes. If it's not a crime for a man to be in a woman's bathroom, and the man doesn't interfere with the women, then there's no crime. That doesn't mean there isn't a problem. You cannot point to the statistics and say that they mean there are no concerns when the statistics by their nature cannot even address all the concerns. That's deeply illogical.
Is non-anal retentive interpretation of the English language a bar too high today?
It's not a matter of my interpretation. It's that you refuse to even say what your preferred criteria is. Even when asked directly and simply to do so, you refuse.

On what basis should transwomen be able to transcend sex segregation? You say it's not self ID, but refuse to say what it is.
 
IOut of curiosity - is it actually law? I mean, is there actually a legislatively passed statute that expressly equates sex and gender identity such that access to single sex spaces, services, and athletics is based on a person's self-perception of themselves? Or is it an interpretation incorporated via governor order, comparable to an EO?

If it's actually a for-realsies law, then there's some footing in NJ for this to stay in place until overturned by legislative act. Although it definitely puts NJ schools at risk, given that the current executive interpretation of "sex" in Title IX has reverted back to actually meaning biological sex. Doesn't mean NJ can't run with their law, but it does mean that their schools could lose federal funding.
Yup. Governor Murphy anticipated that and codified into State law, specifically to make it more resistant.
 
Let's see you list the criteria you use to tell men from women. You said it would be easy, but you're unwilling to give an answer.
I'll play your stupid game. I'll play it because even if you don't know the specifics your brain is absolutely aware of them. Furthermore, you're relying on the heap fallacy to pretend as if they don't exist. You're pretending that because we can't draw a bright and incontrovertible line that says "below this specific number, it's grains of sand, and above this specific number, it's a beach".

Visual indicators of the female sex include:
  • shoulder width narrower than the width of the hips
  • normal height between 5' and 5'8", with a mean at about 5'4"
  • relatively small hands, with shorter fingers relative the the length of the palm, and with the ring finger shorter than the middle finger, and with rounded fingertips
  • relatively small feet, with the forefoot wider than the arch, higher arches, and narrower heels and ankles, with higher flexibility in the bones of the foot
  • narrow chin
  • arched brow ridges with less overhang of the eyes
  • rounded jaw
  • sharper angle of the nasal bone between the forehead and the nose
  • waist above the navel
  • overall higher body fat, with concentration of fatty deposits in the breasts, hips, and buttocks at healthy weight - pear shaped
  • hips wider than the waist
  • femur at an angle from the hips relative to the ground
  • rounded iliac crest, with the crest falling between the L5 and L4 vertebrae
  • shorter sternum and rib cage
  • smaller pores on the facial skin
  • very fine arm hair
  • short, near invisible facial and chest hair
  • no notable adam's apple
Visual indicators of the male sex include:
  • Shoulder width wider than the width of the hips
  • Normal height between 5'6" and 6'0", with a mean at about 5'9"
  • relatively larger hands, with longer fingers relative the the length of the palm, and with the ring finger longer or equal to the length of the middle finger, and with blunted fingertips
  • relatively larger feet, with the forefoot similar in width to the arch, a lower arch, wider heels and ankles, and lower flexibility in the bones of the foot
  • wider chin
  • squared brow ridges with larger overhang of the eyes
  • squared jaw
  • shallower angle of the nasal bone between the forehead and the nose
  • waist below the navel
  • overall lower body fat, with concentrations of fatty deposits around the abdomen - apple shaped
  • hips the same or narrower than the waist
  • femur orthogonal to the ground descending directly from the hip
  • more pointed iliac crest with the crest falling between the L4 and L3 vertebrae
  • longer sternum and rib cage, with ribs spaced further apart
  • larger pores on the facial skin
  • longer and coarser arm hair
  • longer, coarser, visible facial and chest hair
  • visual adam's apple
Each of these attributes shows variation around a mean, and it's possible for any individual trait to overlap with the normal range of the opposite sex. But this also falls into the realm of cluster analysis - for any female, they're massively more likely to have traits that are more like the average for females than like the average for males, and vice versa for males. This means that while you might point to an individual female and say "this one is unusually tall for a female" you're extraordinarily unlikely to be able to identify more than a very few traits that fall into the normal range for a male. Thus, when taken in totality, the gestalt visual interpretation of a female is extremely likely.

Not all traits have the same clustering strength, some have more "sorting power" than others. Facial hair is a big one, since it's very closely tied to sex. Several of the visual indicators of males are triggered by testosterone - facial and body hair, location of fatty deposits, adam's apple. As such, a female who takes testosterone will develop those characteristics (and some of them cannot be undone if they stop taking testosterone). This can allow a female to more successfully mimic a male on a cursory look.

For a male to be mistaken for a female, they would need to have the predominance of those visible indicators fall well outside the normal standard deviation for their sex, and into the normal range for a female - and that's extremely unlikely to occur naturally.
 
I'll play your stupid game. I'll play it because even if you don't know the specifics your brain is absolutely aware of them. Furthermore, you're relying on the heap fallacy to pretend as if they don't exist. You're pretending that because we can't draw a bright and incontrovertible line that says "below this specific number, it's grains of sand, and above this specific number, it's a beach".

Visual indicators of the female sex include:
  • shoulder width narrower than the width of the hips
  • normal height between 5' and 5'8", with a mean at about 5'4"
  • relatively small hands, with shorter fingers relative the the length of the palm, and with the ring finger shorter than the middle finger, and with rounded fingertips
  • relatively small feet, with the forefoot wider than the arch, higher arches, and narrower heels and ankles, with higher flexibility in the bones of the foot
  • narrow chin
  • arched brow ridges with less overhang of the eyes
  • rounded jaw
  • sharper angle of the nasal bone between the forehead and the nose
  • waist above the navel
  • overall higher body fat, with concentration of fatty deposits in the breasts, hips, and buttocks at healthy weight - pear shaped
  • hips wider than the waist
  • femur at an angle from the hips relative to the ground
  • rounded iliac crest, with the crest falling between the L5 and L4 vertebrae
  • shorter sternum and rib cage
  • smaller pores on the facial skin
  • very fine arm hair
  • short, near invisible facial and chest hair
  • no notable adam's apple
Visual indicators of the male sex include:
  • Shoulder width wider than the width of the hips
  • Normal height between 5'6" and 6'0", with a mean at about 5'9"
  • relatively larger hands, with longer fingers relative the the length of the palm, and with the ring finger longer or equal to the length of the middle finger, and with blunted fingertips
  • relatively larger feet, with the forefoot similar in width to the arch, a lower arch, wider heels and ankles, and lower flexibility in the bones of the foot
  • wider chin
  • squared brow ridges with larger overhang of the eyes
  • squared jaw
  • shallower angle of the nasal bone between the forehead and the nose
  • waist below the navel
  • overall lower body fat, with concentrations of fatty deposits around the abdomen - apple shaped
  • hips the same or narrower than the waist
  • femur orthogonal to the ground descending directly from the hip
  • more pointed iliac crest with the crest falling between the L4 and L3 vertebrae
  • longer sternum and rib cage, with ribs spaced further apart
  • larger pores on the facial skin
  • longer and coarser arm hair
  • longer, coarser, visible facial and chest hair
  • visual adam's apple
Each of these attributes shows variation around a mean, and it's possible for any individual trait to overlap with the normal range of the opposite sex. But this also falls into the realm of cluster analysis - for any female, they're massively more likely to have traits that are more like the average for females than like the average for males, and vice versa for males. This means that while you might point to an individual female and say "this one is unusually tall for a female" you're extraordinarily unlikely to be able to identify more than a very few traits that fall into the normal range for a male. Thus, when taken in totality, the gestalt visual interpretation of a female is extremely likely.

Not all traits have the same clustering strength, some have more "sorting power" than others. Facial hair is a big one, since it's very closely tied to sex. Several of the visual indicators of males are triggered by testosterone - facial and body hair, location of fatty deposits, adam's apple. As such, a female who takes testosterone will develop those characteristics (and some of them cannot be undone if they stop taking testosterone). This can allow a female to more successfully mimic a male on a cursory look.

For a male to be mistaken for a female, they would need to have the predominance of those visible indicators fall well outside the normal standard deviation for their sex, and into the normal range for a female - and that's extremely unlikely to occur naturally.

Have a go at this. It's just faces. It's interesting.

 
I'll play your stupid game. I'll play it because even if you don't know the specifics your brain is absolutely aware of them. Furthermore, you're relying on the heap fallacy to pretend as if they don't exist. You're pretending that because we can't draw a bright and incontrovertible line that says "below this specific number, it's grains of sand, and above this specific number, it's a beach".

Visual indicators of the female sex include:
  • shoulder width narrower than the width of the hips
  • normal height between 5' and 5'8", with a mean at about 5'4"
  • relatively small hands, with shorter fingers relative the the length of the palm, and with the ring finger shorter than the middle finger, and with rounded fingertips
  • relatively small feet, with the forefoot wider than the arch, higher arches, and narrower heels and ankles, with higher flexibility in the bones of the foot
  • narrow chin
  • arched brow ridges with less overhang of the eyes
  • rounded jaw
  • sharper angle of the nasal bone between the forehead and the nose
  • waist above the navel
  • overall higher body fat, with concentration of fatty deposits in the breasts, hips, and buttocks at healthy weight - pear shaped
  • hips wider than the waist
  • femur at an angle from the hips relative to the ground
  • rounded iliac crest, with the crest falling between the L5 and L4 vertebrae
  • shorter sternum and rib cage
  • smaller pores on the facial skin
  • very fine arm hair
  • short, near invisible facial and chest hair
  • no notable adam's apple
Visual indicators of the male sex include:
  • Shoulder width wider than the width of the hips
  • Normal height between 5'6" and 6'0", with a mean at about 5'9"
  • relatively larger hands, with longer fingers relative the the length of the palm, and with the ring finger longer or equal to the length of the middle finger, and with blunted fingertips
  • relatively larger feet, with the forefoot similar in width to the arch, a lower arch, wider heels and ankles, and lower flexibility in the bones of the foot
  • wider chin
  • squared brow ridges with larger overhang of the eyes
  • squared jaw
  • shallower angle of the nasal bone between the forehead and the nose
  • waist below the navel
  • overall lower body fat, with concentrations of fatty deposits around the abdomen - apple shaped
  • hips the same or narrower than the waist
  • femur orthogonal to the ground descending directly from the hip
  • more pointed iliac crest with the crest falling between the L4 and L3 vertebrae
  • longer sternum and rib cage, with ribs spaced further apart
  • larger pores on the facial skin
  • longer and coarser arm hair
  • longer, coarser, visible facial and chest hair
  • visual adam's apple
Each of these attributes shows variation around a mean, and it's possible for any individual trait to overlap with the normal range of the opposite sex. But this also falls into the realm of cluster analysis - for any female, they're massively more likely to have traits that are more like the average for females than like the average for males, and vice versa for males. This means that while you might point to an individual female and say "this one is unusually tall for a female" you're extraordinarily unlikely to be able to identify more than a very few traits that fall into the normal range for a male. Thus, when taken in totality, the gestalt visual interpretation of a female is extremely likely.

Not all traits have the same clustering strength, some have more "sorting power" than others. Facial hair is a big one, since it's very closely tied to sex. Several of the visual indicators of males are triggered by testosterone - facial and body hair, location of fatty deposits, adam's apple. As such, a female who takes testosterone will develop those characteristics (and some of them cannot be undone if they stop taking testosterone). This can allow a female to more successfully mimic a male on a cursory look.

For a male to be mistaken for a female, they would need to have the predominance of those visible indicators fall well outside the normal standard deviation for their sex, and into the normal range for a female - and that's extremely unlikely to occur naturally.

I'm slightly tempted to try to get a screenshot of that opening scene of the Met Parsifal, to demonstrate how easy it is to pick out the two women among the Grail Knights, despite everything the costume and makeup department threw at them to try to get them to blend in with all the men.
 
I suspect that many trans men accidentally out themselves, when they try to start up conversations with strangers in the mens room.

The only time I've seen conversations in the male facilities, is if two people, very well known to each other, continue a conversation as they enter the room.

Not quite as bad as Asimov's depiction of the anxiety attack induced by a robot (disguised as a human) speaking in the 'fresher'...

... Was it in Caves of Steel? no matter.

But still I imagine someone trying to start a conversation with a stranger would be greeted by something like:

"Are you new here?"

at best

or "◊◊◊◊ Off" at worst.
"Eyes on your own work there, super chief" - Wayne
 
Profound enough to court gynecomastia but not so profound as to tolerate anorgasmia.
I suspect this view is shared by a lot more males than might be initially assumed. It's entirely anecdotal, but I've heard many males over the years opine that they'd love to have their own boobs that they could play with whenever they want.
 
Yeah, it shows.
Thanks for ENTIRELY ignoring the content of my post, and the context in which that statement was made.
I've been meaning to bring this up, because i haven't seen it mentioned (search is down, remember). Maybe you genuinely don't know what that term means? EC, that term basically doesn't exist among non-bigots. See the search below; it doesn't appear as a legit phrase, except that Wiktionary acknowledges it as derogatory and offensive term for transwomen. And that's exactly what you broadcast by using it. It doesn't matter if you say "oh, it's just meant to be more clear". Yeah, right. It's crystal ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ clear.

So you and others can't say you are unaware that it's a slur anymore. You know. So if you start with 'TIM' and then try to sound sincere about women's safety or whatever, you should know that it stinks like a steaming pile of dog ◊◊◊◊, but your dog whistle is heard loud and clear.
Yeah, no. I reject this. I use the term because it is accurate, and because it removes any confusion about whether or not the object of discussion is a female in any sense at all. It emphasizes that they remain male regardless of their internal subjective feeling about their personality traits.

Why should I be obligated to adopt terminology that intentionally obfuscates material reality in order to cater to the feelings of a group of people that are actively trampling my rights, dignity, and safety?
 
"Eyes on your own work there, super chief" - Wayne

I have actually heard stories about transmen cheerfully trying to start conversations in the Gents, to the horror of the native inhabitants, who probably knew all along this was a girl.
 
It's not a matter of my interpretation.
It absolutely is. EC posed Eddie Hall in the women's room. I responded with Eddie Hall in her bathroom. You feign confusion about what I could possibly have meant. Knock it the ◊◊◊◊ off.
It's that you refuse to even say what your preferred criteria is. Even when asked directly and simply to do so, you refuse.
I have. Repeatedly. With linked definitions to dispel your internal anti-trans autocorrect that keeps bogging you down.
On what basis should transwomen be able to transcend sex segregation? You say it's not self ID, but refuse to say what it is.
Your question remains nonsensical, as we frequently don't have clearly defined sex segregated spaces, and I have said gender ID doesn't get you into the ones we have defined.

In regions where sex and gender are not clearly defined or equivalent, your question has no meaning at all.

Please refer back to this post for the next 87 times you say it was never answered.

Ask questions that have clearer meanings, and you will get clearer answers.
 
Thanks for ENTIRELY ignoring the content of my post, and the context in which that statement was made.

Yeah, no. I reject this. I use the term because it is accurate, and because it removes any confusion about whether or not the object of discussion is a female in any sense at all. It emphasizes that they remain male regardless of their internal subjective feeling about their personality traits.

Why should I be obligated to adopt terminology that intentionally obfuscates material reality in order to cater to the feelings of a group of people that are actively trampling my rights, dignity, and safety?

It's back to what you said about there not being a "non-transphobic" source for a great deal of information, because every source that publishes something the trans lobby doesn't like is branded transphobic. They try to push us further and further to their compelled usage by branding any terminology they don't like as transphobic. Look at the controversy about the title of this thread, "Transwomen" (the original, as the OP typed it) versus "Trans women" which at one point it was changed to because someone - probably Boudicca - complained that the one-word usage was transphobic. I was able to get it changed back.

It's an attempt to win by compelling language. Like compelling pronoun usage. If you're forced to use their dictated language, they're three-quarters of the way to winning the argument. "Trans girl isn't allowed to use the girls' bathroom, she's very upset" versus "trans-identifying boy isn't allowed to use the girls' bathroom, he's very upset". I think a lot of the public support for trans people comes from those who have been misled by the terminology the TRAs insist we use.
 
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