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Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 32

The self pity. The self pity!

O, woe is me! O, WOE IS Meeeeeee!!!

Get convicted of a serious crime, do the time. That is how it goes.

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Huh? It was pointed out that it made no sense for Amanda and Raffaele, with no history of anger or violence, to murder Amanda's friend and housemate for no reason. You counter by citing precedent from other cases, and then you proceeded to list two of them. The problem for you is that Stacy made it clear those cases were not remotely similar to this case in as much as in those cases the perpetrator had motive and past behavioral issues consistent with the crime, none of which existed in this case. And how do you respond?? .... O, woe is me! ???? Is that it? A proper response would have been "yeah, OK, I see your point" or "OK, how about these cases...", NOT "WOE IS Meeeeee!!!"

BTW, this is clearly not the first time you've tried this, nor is it the first time it was pointed out to you that your examples are not supporting your position. So my suggestion would be, the next time you try this tact you might want to find a case or two that are truly comparable to this one. Now, I would agree that this is problematic, as I've never known, nor have I ever personally heard of a case comparable to this one, but it's the approach you want to take, you should come armed with the goods.
 
Rationalisation simply doesn't work in a court of law. If you want to argue the would coulds and shoulds you have to be explicit as to how your would coulds and shoulds happened, with supporting evidence. As your hero, Hellmann, was told, in no uncertain terms, as Chieffi handed his arse back to him and ripped up his MR.



.
You know, it's kinda funny, but I didn't notice any rationalization by Stacy, nor did I see a single could, should or would in her post. What I did see is a brief, if not wholly accurate summation of facts from this case. Chieffi may have overturned Hellmann, but Marasca eventually confirmed Hellmann was correct. Put that in your pipe and smoke it!
 
i don't really follow this thread, and I apologize for my general ignorance. I don't really caer. So, this will sound weird i guess, but why would glass go backwards regardless of where thrown from .
 
I already said, they didn't realise forensic police could analyse footprints. Guede split because he didn't live there he didn't need to help clean up.

Previously, when asked why they'd not only leave but point out the bloody print on the bathmat if it were Sollecito's, your answer was that they thought themselves smarter than the police and that they wanted to "pull one over" on the police.
Now apparently, they just didn't know that footprints, like fingerprints, could be analyzed.

:lolsign:
 
The people who think they can spot a criminal just by looking at them or by knowing their ethnicity or gender


..
I can't even count the number of times I seen PGP claim they can see guilt/evil in Knox's eyes. I've never seen anyone claim they can see innocence in someone's eyes. It's always guilt/evil/sociopathy, etc.
 
i don't really follow this thread, and I apologize for my general ignorance. I don't really caer. So, this will sound weird i guess, but why would glass go backwards regardless of where thrown from .


Depends on whether there is something behind it. The PIP are desperate to prove it was a real burglary because if it was a staged one the question would be, 'Now who would do that?'

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Previously, when asked why they'd not only leave but point out the bloody print on the bathmat if it were Sollecito's, your answer was that they thought themselves smarter than the police and that they wanted to "pull one over" on the police.
Now apparently, they just didn't know that footprints, like fingerprints, could be analyzed.

:lolsign:


You might as well ask why would a perp leave his or her fingerprints or DNA at the crime scene? But they do. The footprint on the bathmat was identified as compatible with Sollecito. How are you going to explain that away? Apart from the usual, oh but he wouldn't have left his footprint for cops to find.

I'll get into my listening pose.


.1745531604742.png
 
You know, it's kinda funny, but I didn't notice any rationalization by Stacy, nor did I see a single could, should or would in her post. What I did see is a brief, if not wholly accurate summation of facts from this case. Chieffi may have overturned Hellmann, but Marasca eventually confirmed Hellmann was correct. Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

No, Marasca merely reinstated Vecchiotti & Conti and their unsubstantiated claim 'it could have been contaminated'. When Chieffi Supreme Court judge excoriated them as intellectually dishonest it was pointed out that you can't just say 'anything is possible' or it might have been contaminated', you have to spell out by which path and how it might have been. It proves the case was corrupted as the annulment was on the grounds of 'insufficient evidence' (exactly how much evidence did they need?) yet the legal facts found remain. The key one being that Knox was CERTAINLY present during the murder, did wash her hands of the victim's blood, the burglary was staged and Knox did name Lumumba (says Marasca) to cover up for Guede.

OK, it's nice to be sprung out of jail on a legal loophole your influential <ahem> barrister has discovered, especially if you are serving life but why would you be happy with that judgement that pretty much damns your behaviour?



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i don't really follow this thread, and I apologize for my general ignorance. I don't really caer. So, this will sound weird i guess, but why would glass go backwards regardless of where thrown from .
Some persons, whether the police and prosecutor in Perugia or pro-guilt commentators generally or pro-guilt posters here apply a false and misleading analysis of the physics of window breaking (the practical results) indicated by the positions of the glass shards, including the one embedded in the outer side of a panel of the inside shutter. The glass shards broken off by a rock thrown from outside a window - especially those in or near the impact area - move in the same direction as the rock (some of the momentum of the moving rock is transferred to the glass shards). Few or no glass shards would fall in the opposite direction of the rock's motion (toward the outside), so one would not expect to find many shards on the ground outside the building under the window's location.

For a detailed appreciation of the window break-in, it's best to read the report of the forensic engineer Ron Hendry, who analyzed the beak-in photos far more thoroughly than the police and prosecutor, who chose an explanation of a staged break-in that made no physical sense. See these four sites, each dealing with an aspect of the break-in:

 
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Some persons, whether the police and prosecutor in Perugia or pro-guilt commentators generally or pro-guilt posters here apply a false and misleading analysis of the physics of window breaking (the practical results) indicated by the positions of the glass shards, including the one embedded in the outer side of a panel of the inside shutter. The glass shards broken off by a rock thrown from outside a window - especially those in or near the impact area - move in the same direction as the rock (some of the momentum of the moving rock is transferred to the glass shards). Few or no glass shards would fall in the opposite direction of the rock's motion (toward the outside), so one would not expect to find many shards on the ground outside the building under the window's location.

For a detailed appreciation of the window break-in, it's best to read the report of the forensic engineer Ron Hendry, who analyzed the beak-in photos far more thoroughly than the police and prosecutor, who chose an explanation of a staged break-in that made no physical sense. See these four sites, each dealing with an aspect of the break-in:



I am afraid the late Ron Hendry is wrong here:


If the outer top shelf door at the wall had been left open by Filomena, then the action of the rock being thrown threw the window from the outside may have induced several articles of clothing to fall from the top shelves. When the large rock impacted the inner solid wood shutter, it would have induced a strong rotation of the shutter. This rotation may have slammed the inner wood shutter into a fully opened wardrobe door and this contact may have induced a strong twisting and jostling action of the wardrobe closet to the extent that many of the overstuffed clothing items fell to the floor. The several photos of the inner solid wood shutter and the top shelf door show varying positions between the two. One position we don’t see is the inner shutter swung around to the wall until it was well out of the way. The shutter’s position in the various photographs is always such that it could have been stopped by contact with the wardrobe door.

2. When Rudy entered the room from the window, he may have stumbled on items on the floor, and to try to maintain his balance he may have reached out and grabbed hold of an open wardrobe door and jostled it such that clothing fell from the overstuffed shelves. Alternately, he may have stumbled toward the wardrobe closet and made contact with the closet such that the upper doors swung open and clothing fell from the overstuffed shelves.

3. When Rudy entered the room from the window, one of his shoes may have snagged the coaxial cable connected to the television and this exerted a notable pull on the television and wardrobe closet such that clothing fell from the overstuffed shelves.​

This is because Filomena said it was the two bottom drawers that had been pulled out and their contents overturned. In addition, she denied that her room was untidy.




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There's a thing: a burglar wore gloves to conceal his identity in respect of a burglary but then threw all caution to the wind in a rape and murder at the same time, a much, much, more serious offence.
By his own account, he was listening to his iPod in the bathroom while taking a dump. He would have removed his gloves in order to use the iPod and to wipe himself. Or do you think he left gloves on for that?

A burglar carries a small glass breaking hammer but then decides to lob a huge rock weighing 9lbs instead, waking up half the neighbourhood.
What part of "Guede was an experienced burglar even carrying a glass breaking tool with him which the Milan police had confiscated" is confusing you?

That "huge rock", or "boulder as you usually refer to it, is shown in the police video being picked up with ONE HAND.
rock one hand.JPG
Speaking of the rock, how incompetent is it for the police not to have collected it until Dec. 18... six weeks after the murder? Whether the burglary was staged or not, the rock may have had vital identifying DNA on it. It's like these cops had never investigated a crime scene before.
 
By his own account, he was listening to his iPod in the bathroom while taking a dump. He would have removed his gloves in order to use the iPod and to wipe himself. Or do you think he left gloves on for that?


What part of "Guede was an experienced burglar even carrying a glass breaking tool with him which the Milan police had confiscated" is confusing you?

That "huge rock", or "boulder as you usually refer to it, is shown in the police video being picked up with ONE HAND.
View attachment 60356
Speaking of the rock, how incompetent is it for the police not to have collected it until Dec. 18... six weeks after the murder? Whether the burglary was staged or not, the rock may have had vital identifying DNA on it. It's like these cops had never investigated a crime scene before.


Oh really? And did Guede collect his gloves on his way out?



There is nothing unusual about a sealed off crime scene and forensic police returning several times. There was a story of some guy who was convicted when his fingerprint was found decades later.

Police who went around with metal detectors around the cottage and grounds - they found no keys or knives - did say they found similar rocks. This indicates someone who found a rock AFTER arriving at the cottage. Someone who had to go around the back to look for it. Not someone who came ready prepared in advance. Burglars don't have all day.


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All the more remarkable Sollecito's full DNA was identified.
It as still a low copy number sample. But no one is disputing his DNA was on the hook. It's how it got there that is crucial.

This was settled in Court - Nencini - and by a top Italian professor, leading expert in genetics. This is factual.
That RS 's DNA is on the hook was settled in the Massei court. Is anyone disputing that? It's how it got there that is crucial. And the Marasca SC accepted the C&V report's findings: probably contamination. This is factual.


Your opinion isn't relevant in respect of what the court upheld. What the court upheld is the relevant one. Please don't tell me you believe there was a conspiracy by the forensic scientists, too, to add to that of the cops and the prosecutor.
The SC also definitively acquitted the pair. What the court upheld is the relevant one. Yet you continue to argue (unconvincingly) for their guilt.

Speaking of the forensic scientists, what would you call Stefanoni's failure to report the negative TMB test results on nine crucial pieces of evidence? An oversight? Whether deliberate or not, that failure to report the results does not reflect well on her.
 
As Hellmann said, "Anything is possible!" but that's not the duty of the court. The court has to come to a conclusion AFTER hearing ALL of the evidence and not before. You can say, 'Oh Guede could have climbed up without leaving any trace of sodden weather and he could have done this... and he could have done that... He could have worn galoshes that he took off just before climbing He might have worn burglars gloves and, as a basketball player, he had reach and fit shoulder muscles....etcetera."

But the court decided it was proven that the burglary was staged, and not just because of the state of the wall, window or shutters.
I see you've retreated from "It's impossible that Guede climbed in through the window," to "The court ruled that Guede didn't climb in through the window." That's progress, of a sort. And as for the hilted, that's just one of your usual lame attempts to distort and ridicule the other side's arguments.

We are not dealing with alternatives here or what you personally ideally would have wished the court concluded.
No. As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, and you continually ignore, we're dealing with what actually happened, rather than just what "the court concluded."

Let me help.
No, let me help. You. Are. Not. The. Teacher. Here.

Were I to say, for example, "Rosemary West is innocent," perhaps because I feel sorry for a woman serving a whole life sentence for murder.
IOW, you're admitting that, in your scenario, you'd be arguing something you didn't actually believe, rather than arguing what you ought to be arguing, which is that West has served enough time and ought to be released. :rolleyes:

Ah, I see now. You're attempting to insinuate, obliquely, that we don't really believe Knox is innocent, and that we're trying to come up with tortured reasoning to explain why she ought to be let off just because we feel sorry for her. Shame on you.

So I argue all kinds of possible alternatives. What are you going to do? You are going to shrug and say, 'Well, that is not what the merits court (the trial proper) decided when it weighed up ALL of the facts from ALL of the evidence [not just yours!]"
No, that's absolutely not what I'm going to do. I'm going to start by considering whether any of your alternatives are plausible. If none of them are, I'm going to say, "None of those are plausible." If any of them are, then we'll talk. (Although it will be a rather short conversation, as West's stepdaughter disappeared while her husband was in prison, and she lied about the disappearance, so she's guilty beyond any doubt of at least one murder.)

That is how the rule of law works.
No. Among other things, the rule of law allows for the possibility that police and prosecutors sometimes get it wrong, that courts make mistakes, and that miscarriages of justice occur.

You won't give a toss about my opinion . . .
Must . . . resist . . . temptation . . .

. . . as Rosemary West remains firmly convicted even if some random somewhere believes it to be a miscarriage of justice.
It just dawned on me that you chose West for your example because a) she was extremely cruel, b) she was mind-bogglingly promiscuous, and c) you believe there appears to be no plausible doubt about her guilt*, thus inviting readers to draw an implicit comparison between her and Knox. Shame on you.

What you call 'factoids' are simply the legal facts settled in court.
No. First, many of the factoids you parrot were never established in court; for example, you keep falsely claiming that Knox's shoe print was found in Kercher's room, when that has never been established.

Second, despite your continual attempts to pretend otherwise, a "legal fact" is not the same as an actual fact.

What you call 'guilters' are simply people who understand the rule of law, because that is all we have . . .
"Everyone who disagrees with me is either ignorant or willfully blind." :rolleyes:

and there is the safety net of appeal.
And yet, every time an appeals court rules in favor of Knox, you claim that they are mistaken, incompetent, and/or corrupt. 🙄

So whilst you and Jack by the Hedge believe strongly that Guede could have climbed in via that method and that the burglary wasn't staged . . .
Because he could have, for reasons discussed by us and others, and ignored or handwaved away, as usual, by you.

. . . although I believe this is more wishful magical thinking than any real knowledge of the issues . . .
:id:
Dammit, Vixen, that's the second one you've broken this week. :mad:

scientific, forensic and as argued in court by experts in that type of thing . . .
Begging the question that the police were competent to determine whether the burglary was staged. Further, despite your stubborn refusal to acknowledge them, we can point to several obvious errors in the investigation (for example, failure to consider Romanelli's testimony that there was glass under the clothing on the floor).

I accept that the courts found it to be staged . . .
Of course you do.

. . . and I haven't seen any convincing evidence that anyone was doing Guede any favours or had any liking for him.
Oh, please, spare us the deliberate obtuseness. :rolleyes: They already had Guede dead to rights for murder and rape. How much difference was tacking on a burglary charge going to make?? The point of claiming the burglary was staged was to implicate Knox and Sollecito, by bolstering the prosecution's "inside job" theory.

I mean it is possible that Guede got into the cottage that way, just as it is possible, as Trump argues, that he was only convicted of multiple corruption because the Judge's daughter was a Democrat senator political activist.
Appeal to ridicule fallacy. And, BTW, that's an extremely poor example, because Trump's hush-money case was a political prosecution (which unfortunately probably helped him get reelected, but which will probably also get the prosecutor elected the next Attorney General of New York State), as opposed to the classified-documents/obstruction case, in which the Justice Department had Trump dead to rights, and could possibly have secured a conviction before the election if they hadn't botched the prosecution. :(

As Hellmann said, 'Anything is possible" But that is not the function of criminal law courts. It is a crude basic system of ascertaining the balance of probability to a high bar that the case against the defendant/s is proven AFTER all the evidence, testimony and legal argument is heard, by ALL of the parties and as per codified statute in the case of Italy.
And, as has been explained to you ad nauseam, courts sometimes get it wrong, especially in high-profile cases where there's tremendous pressure to solve a case quickly.

So does your opinion or mine matter as to determining guilt or innocence? No, it does not.
Yet you seem to have plenty of opinions about how all the appeals courts that found Knox and Sollecito not guilty got it wrong. :rolleyes:
_________________
*West's husband committed two murders before they met, so there is a non-zero chance that she wasn't involved in the murders which she was convicted of participating in with him, although the evidence that she was is quite strong. However, as I mentioned, there is zero doubt that West murdered her stepdaughter while her husband was in prison.
 
It as still a low copy number sample. But no one is disputing his DNA was on the hook. It's how it got there that is crucial.


That RS 's DNA is on the hook was settled in the Massei court. Is anyone disputing that? It's how it got there that is crucial. And the Marasca SC accepted the C&V report's findings: probably contamination. This is factual.



The SC also definitively acquitted the pair. What the court upheld is the relevant one. Yet you continue to argue (unconvincingly) for their guilt.

Speaking of the forensic scientists, what would you call Stefanoni's failure to report the negative TMB test results on nine crucial pieces of evidence? An oversight? Whether deliberate or not, that failure to report the results does not reflect well on her.


No, Marasca-Bruno did not say 'probably'. It waffled on about some imaginary astonishing investigation deficiencies, because they allowed Bongiorno to corrupt their judgment with her cod 360-page Gill report. Gill a paid-for defence advocate for some crank US scientists with ridiculous nationalistic beliefs, who was never cross-examined and his views never tested at trial.

I don't argue for innocence or guilt, I follow the rule of law and what takes place in the court room.



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Oh really? And did Guede collect his gloves on his way out?
There's this new clothing invention called "pockets". In order to play his iPod and clean himself, he'd have to remove his gloves. Or do you want to argue he'd do that with winter gloves on?
There is nothing unusual about a sealed off crime scene and forensic police returning several times. There was a story of some guy who was convicted when his fingerprint was found decades later.
Agreed. Nothing unusual about going back to a crime scene What IS unusual is failing to collect crucial evidence items for six weeks like the jacket she was wearing when attacked, the bra clasp, her purse, and the rock. All of which were important evidence for both the assault/murder and the break-in.
Do you now want to argue that those were not vital and obvious evidence items that should have been collected immediately and NOT six weeks later after the cottage had been turned topsy-turvy?

Police who went around with metal detectors around the cottage and grounds - they found no keys or knives - did say they found similar rocks. This indicates someone who found a rock AFTER arriving at the cottage. Someone who had to go around the back to look for it. Not someone who came ready prepared in advance. Burglars don't have all day.
Jesus Christ. No one is saying he came prepared with his own custom rock! Yes, Vixen, he picked up a rock AFTER arriving at the cottage. Sherlock Holmes could not have deduced that any better. You don't know where on the property he picked it up. For all you or we know, it was right there on the parking parapet.
 
I see you've retreated from "It's impossible that Guede climbed in through the window," to "The court ruled that Guede didn't climb in through the window." That's progress, of a sort. And as for the hilted, that's just one of your usual lame attempts to distort and ridicule the other side's arguments.


No. As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, and you continually ignore, we're dealing with what actually happened, rather than just what "the court concluded."


No, let me help. You. Are. Not. The. Teacher. Here.


IOW, you're admitting that, in your scenario, you'd be arguing something you didn't actually believe, rather than arguing what you ought to be arguing, which is that West has served enough time and ought to be released. :rolleyes:

Ah, I see now. You're attempting to insinuate, obliquely, that we don't really believe Knox is innocent, and that we're trying to come up with tortured reasoning to explain why she ought to be let off just because we feel sorry for her. Shame on you.


No, that's absolutely not what I'm going to do. I'm going to start by considering whether any of your alternatives are plausible. If none of them are, I'm going to say, "None of those are plausible." If any of them are, then we'll talk. (Although it will be a rather short conversation, as West's stepdaughter disappeared while her husband was in prison, and she lied about the disappearance, so she's guilty beyond any doubt of at least one murder.)


No. Among other things, the rule of law allows for the possibility that police and prosecutors sometimes get it wrong, that courts make mistakes, and that miscarriages of justice occur.


Must . . . resist . . . temptation . . .


It just dawned on me that you chose West for your example because a) she was extremely cruel, b) she was mind-bogglingly promiscuous, and c) you believe there appears to be no plausible doubt about her guilt*, thus inviting readers to draw an implicit comparison between her and Knox. Shame on you.


No. First, many of the factoids you parrot were never established in court; for example, you keep falsely claiming that Knox's shoe print was found in Kercher's room, when that has never been established.

Second, despite your continual attempts to pretend otherwise, a "legal fact" is not the same as an actual fact.


"Everyone who disagrees with me is either ignorant or willfully blind." :rolleyes:


And yet, every time an appeals court rules in favor of Knox, you claim that they are mistaken, incompetent, and/or corrupt. 🙄


Because he could have, for reasons discussed by us and others, and ignored or handwaved away, as usual, by you.


:id:
Dammit, Vixen, that's the second one you've broken this week. :mad:


Begging the question that the police were competent to determine whether the burglary was staged. Further, despite your stubborn refusal to acknowledge them, we can point to several obvious errors in the investigation (for example, failure to consider Romanelli's testimony that there was glass under the clothing on the floor).


Of course you do.


Oh, please, spare us the deliberate obtuseness. :rolleyes: They already had Guede dead to rights for murder and rape. How much difference was tacking on a burglary charge going to make?? The point of claiming the burglary was staged was to implicate Knox and Sollecito, by bolstering the prosecution's "inside job" theory.


Appeal to ridicule fallacy. And, BTW, that's an extremely poor example, because Trump's hush-money case was a political prosecution (which unfortunately probably helped him get reelected, but which will probably also get the prosecutor elected the next Attorney General of New York State), as opposed to the classified-documents/obstruction case, in which the Justice Department had Trump dead to rights, and could possibly have secured a conviction before the election if they hadn't botched the prosecution. :(


And, as has been explained to you ad nauseam, courts sometimes get it wrong, especially in high-profile cases where there's tremendous pressure to solve a case quickly.


Yet you seem to have plenty of opinions about how all the appeals courts that found Knox and Sollecito not guilty got it wrong. :rolleyes:
_________________
*West's husband committed two murders before they met, so there is a non-zero chance that she wasn't involved in the murders which she was convicted of participating in with him, although the evidence that she was is quite strong. However, as I mentioned, there is zero doubt that West murdered her stepdaughter while her husband was in prison.


You do know that Knox was eager to talk? When she met with Mignini accompanied by Ghirga and Dalla Vedova, when asked by Mignini, in his role as prosecutor for the case, why she had said she was at the scene with 'Patrick', she said, 'Because it could be true."

At that point, being defence lawyers Ghirgha and Dalla Vedova sprung to shut her up. They demanded a ten-minute break to speak to their client. Knox was crying her eyes out at every mention of being at the scene (to Mignini's mind as though she was reliving being there). Mignini wanted to continue as he knew Knox just wanted to tell all. Her two lawyers strongly urged Knox to ask to terminate the interview (being defence lawyers, that is what they do, they shut their clients up from incriminating themselves), so Knox took the strong message and terminated it.

As I have argued, Knox could have been straight with them all along as that is what she wanted to do but once Mom and dad Curt had arrived and her US Embassy lawyer appointed, she was firmly shut up and told to go the normal 'no comment' route. But at that stage she had already changed her story three or four times.

She could have had a lesser charge and sentence due to cooperation with the police and courts, out in five or six years, fairly anonymous and ready to rebuild her life without the horrible mental health trauma of having to live a lie for her family and friends for the rest of her life with the bonkers claim that she was set up by Mignini.

People like Gill and Vecchiotti think they are being kind when really, sometimes honesty is the best policy for a happy life.



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Status of Execution [of the ECHR judgment Knox v. Italy before the DEJ/CoM]:



Bilateral contacts are ongoing to obtain the submission of an action plan or report.

The authorities submitted a preliminary communication on 10 January 2020, informing on the payment of just satisfaction and of the dissemination of the judgment.
Source: https://hudoc.exec.coe.int/eng?i=004-52517

There's a Guide for the drafting of action plans and reports for the execution of judgments of the European Court of Human Rights.
See: https://rm.coe.int/guide-drafting-action-plans-reports-en/1680592206

Some interesting points:

1. The respondent state is required to produce an action plan (or action report, if it believes the execution is complete) 6 months after the ECHR judgment becomes final. For Knox v. Italy, that date is 24 June 2019. Italy should have had an action plan for the case on or before 24 December 2019. So it's currently 5 years and 4 months behind.

2. When a respondent state does not have an action plan by the deadline, the DEJ is supposed to send a reminder setting a new time limit 3 months beyond the previous time limit (for standard supervision; Knox v. Italy is under standard supervision). If the respondent state fails to provide the action plan at the new time limit without an explanation, the supervision may be raised to enhanced supervision (meaning relatively frequent reviews by the CoM). No information as to whether this procedure was followed in this case is publicly available.

3. Action plans are intended to be dynamic and change with significant developments in the execution process. An action report is the final report issued when the execution is complete in the view of the respondent state an.d of the CoM's review.

Now that Italy has taken some actions in the case (without having provided any action plan to the DEJ/CoM), it will be interesting to learn what it believes it has accomplished in 1. annulling the initial final conviction of calunnia; 2. remanding Knox to a new trial, using her Memoriales as evidence of calunnia; and 3. re-convicting her of calunnia on the basis of the Memoriales and the inquisitorial assumption that she was present in the cottage at the time of the murder of Kercher. Of further interest will be the view of the DEJ/CoM on the action plan or report delivered by Italy.
 
The verified objective, scientifically recorded as of the call point phone logs show Batistelli arrived circa 12:30 and Sollecito rang HIS SISTER at 12:54 and then the Carabinieri proper (not the police whom you should call [and not the military police!]). This is a fact upheld in court. It is not relevant what you believe.
Oh, dear. The ONLY court that found Battistelli arrived before the 112 calls was Nencini. Massei and Hellmann both found he arrived AFTER. From the Hellmann MR:

There has been much discussion on what did ‐ or did not ‐ transpire prior to the call made to 112 with respect to the unexpected arrival of the Police, the Prosecutor conjecturing that the call to the Carabinieri on 112 had been made at the sight of the unexpected arrival of the Police, and made only to corroborate the theory of their innocence. But on the basis of testimony given by the Police personnel on duty and from the schedules recorded on the printouts, even Court of the Assizes of First Instance reached the conclusion that those telephone calls had been made prior to the arrival of the Police, and with no knowledge of their imminent arrival.
Marasca does not claim the calls were made after the postales arrived, either.
Yet, again, you refuse to answer my question: Did the police miss the FIVE phone call made during the time the postales...and you...claim they were there?
Your refusal to address that can only be inferred as an admission that these 'trained observers' either missed all five calls or they just were not there before 1:00.


Here is a pic of the natural light Mez had in her room.


View attachment 60346


She really didn't need to borrow Knox' lamp.
You're right. She didn't need Knox's lamp DURING BROAD DAYLIGHT!

But you still haven't answered my question: If guilty, is it more logical and plausible than not that Knox would have invented a story to explain the lamp rather than just say, "I don't know how it got there,"?

When someone is repeatedly asked a question and they refuse to answer it, it's because they either can't or they can't give a rational answer.
 

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