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Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

Mycroft said:
I don't remember saying that. I could put on my wife's clothing, and I would be wearing woman's clothing. Nowhere did I say that alone would make me a woman or a transwoman.

I remember a lot of gaslighting, people telling me there was no such thing as men's/woman's clothing. I'm glad that bit of foolishness was put down.
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I'm telling you that there's no such thing as men's/women's clothing, as an indicator of gender identity in public policy. As a stereotype or convention, sure.
Mycroft said:
I remember saying transwomen wear women's clothing, and was immediately jumped by people claiming I was saying they were somehow compelled to wear woman's clothing exclusively and other silly things I can't remember. That bit of foolishness was put down too.
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I'm saying that transwomen wear whatever they want, and conventional women's clothing doesn't identify someone as trans. That's the foolishness we've been trying to bring to your attention: conventional women's clothing is irrelevant to the definition or validation of transwomanhood.
 
theprestige said:
The assertion is that opportunistic predators and misgynists will self-ID as women, in order gain access to women's spaces to sexually harass and exploit them, and that making self-ID public policy would put their victims at risk of legal sanction if they object.
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And a person who doesn't transition until after they've been arrested and prosecuted still doesn't fit that model.

theprestige said:
The thing you say isn't happening keeps happening.
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What do I say isn't happening?

theprestige said:
I'm not saying all transwomen are misogynists and predators. Far from it! I'm saying that fiat self-ID, as a policy, doesn't help the non-predatory types.
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Why are you fixated on self-ID? Can't you set this straw-man aside and argue what people in this thread are saying instead?

I swear, I jump into this thread and half a dozen people jump on me insisting I must support self-ID. I proclaim I reject this paradigm, and dozens of pages later people are still trying to work self-ID into the argument.

Is it that self-ID is the only thing you know how to argue against?
 
Mycroft said:
If the assertion is people will transition in order to gain access to women's only spaces to rape them, then people who don't transition until after they've been caught and prosecuted don't fit that model.
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They can. A bunch of men, committing crimes as men, suddenly get a case of Jailhouse Re-Identifying, specifically to gain access to the women's prison, where they now have a smorgasbord of new potential victims. It's opportunistic, not a soul searching experience. When they go through their sudden re-identifying, they invariably demand to be jailed over in the women's prison, never ever to remain in the men's. It does smack of gaming the system for new victims.
 
Mycroft said:
I've answered your question. But I've got a new answer for you:

I reject the idea that Bryson represents all trans-people. Cherry-picking a scary trans-person and using them to represent all trans-people is bigoted fear-mongering and I will not participate in it.

I'm tired of this merry-go-round. That's the response you get verbatim every time you bring up Bryson or any other scary trans-person.
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I also reject that idea and I'm sure most (if not all) posters also reject it. But that's not the point. Here, I'll generalize:

Should convicted, biologically male rapists who self ID as trans be permitted to use women's bathrooms?

It would be refreshing if your answer began with Yes or No.
 
varwoche said:
I also reject that idea and I'm sure most (if not all) posters also reject it. But that's not the point. Here, I'll generalize:

Should convicted, biologically male rapists who self ID as trans be permitted to use women's bathrooms?

It would be refreshing if your answer began with Yes or No.
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Are drunk drivers forbidden from drinking alcohol after they served their time?

Are cis-het rapists forbidden from walking on dark streets where lone women might be present?

You seem to think ongoing perversion is an enforcable lock with trans people. Is it so with any other group?
 
Mycroft said:
I don't understand why you ask these questions.
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That's manifestly clear. I don't really care if you don't understand why, you should still be able to answer the question regardless of my motives. It's not a complicated question.

But the explanation for why I ask is actually quite simple. I want to understand your position. The answer to this question will help me understand your position. Bryson is a real person, not a hypothetical. How does your position handle this real-world case? Is it even capable of handling this real-world case? The longer you dodge, the more it seems like you cannot.
 
Mycroft said:
And a person who doesn't transition until after they've been arrested and prosecuted still doesn't fit that model.



What do I say isn't happening?



Why are you fixated on self-ID? Can't you set this straw-man aside and argue what people in this thread are saying instead?

I swear, I jump into this thread and half a dozen people jump on me insisting I must support self-ID. I proclaim I reject this paradigm, and dozens of pages later people are still trying to work self-ID into the argument.

Is it that self-ID is the only thing you know how to argue against?
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Self-ID is one of two major public policy issues relating to trans rights. It's not a straw man, it is the stated (and in some jurisdictions accomplished) objective of trans rights activism. It's one of the few concrete points of TRA that are actually scrutable in rational terms. The other being the efficacy and ethicality of trans-affirming care for minors.
 
Thermal said:
They can. A bunch of men, committing crimes as men, suddenly get a case of Jailhouse Re-Identifying, specifically to gain access to the women's prison, where they now have a smorgasbord of new potential victims. It's opportunistic, not a soul searching experience. When they go through their sudden re-identifying, they invariably demand to be jailed over in the women's prison, never ever to remain in the men's. It does smack of gaming the system for new victims.
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Okay, so they're not trying to gain access to public toilets, but women's prisons.

As far as I know that doesn't work in the United States. Does it work elsewhere?
 
theprestige said:
Self-ID is one of two major public policy issues relating to trans rights. It's not a straw man, it is the stated (and in some jurisdictions accomplished) objective of trans rights activism. It's one of the few concrete points of TRA that are actually scrutable in rational terms. The other being the efficacy and ethicality of trans-affirming care for minors.
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If nobody is arguing for it here, then it's a straw-man here.
 
Mycroft said:
A few pages back you implied a trans-man wouldn't be safe using a woman's bathroom even though they were using the correct bathroom according to your ideology.
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I don't believe I have implied this. Can you provide a reference?
Mycroft said:
You said something about a hen with a beard and feathers up it's butt.
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Have you genuinely never watched Fight Club?

Mycroft said:
I've seen in this thread trans people referred to as cosplayers, larpers and other terms that minimize them.
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Yep. And you probably will continue to do so. That doesn't imply hate. I view drag queens as being synonymous to minstrel actors in blackface - they don a caricature of femaleness in order to perform a frequently negative and denigrating performance. I find it deeply offensive.

Transvestites - by which I mean males who acknowledge and accept that they are males, but who like to wear traditionally female styled clothing - don't bother me at all. Even though I'm aware that a large portion of transvestites use such clothing as part of the sexual arousal, as long as they're not claiming to actually be synonymous with females, or to use female spaces, I genuinely don't care. People should be allowed to wear whatever (venue appropriate) clothing they want without harassment.

On the other hand... males who claim to be "woman" are engaging in performative role-play. They are NOT women, they are NOT female. They do not have female bodies or female experiences, and it's all made up pretend. I get that some few of them have actual genuine mental disorders that are focused around their perception of their physical bodies... but the majority do not. The majority out there are literally cosplaying womanhood and invading female spaces against our will and without our consent.

Mycroft said:
There is also this autogynephilia nonsense, where people are dismissed as perverts.
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A fair number of the people you're so adamantly defending ARE autogynephiles, and they DO engage in fetishistic behaviors that use actual living female human being as unwilling participants in their sexual role-play.

Mycroft said:
I would count all of these as expressions of hate, and conclude that being hateful is more common than not among the anti-trans crowd.
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And yet you're totally copacetic with these poor, oppressed, vulnerable transgender identified males proudly declaring that females should be punched/raped/hung/burnt/decapitated or otherwise harmed if those females don't roll over and surrender our boundaries.

Why are you so happily silent about such blatant and direct hatred being directed at females?
 
Thermal said:
They can. A bunch of men, committing crimes as men, suddenly get a case of Jailhouse Re-Identifying, specifically to gain access to the women's prison, where they now have a smorgasbord of new potential victims. It's opportunistic, not a soul searching experience. When they go through their sudden re-identifying, they invariably demand to be jailed over in the women's prison, never ever to remain in the men's. It does smack of gaming the system for new victims.
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Of course it's gaming the system. That's precisely what self ID enables, and that's precisely why so many people oppose self ID. Is that confusing to you?
 
Mycroft said:
Okay, so they're not trying to gain access to public toilets, but women's prisons.

As far as I know that doesn't work in the United States. Does it work elsewhere?
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Oh, in the States its already happened (California, and more than once), but they are dialing it back. In my state, there is a threat assessment of the specific prisoner before assigning them sex specifically, where they situationally look at his pattern, how violent he has been, etc
 
Mycroft said:
If nobody is arguing for it here, then it's a straw-man here.
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We're telling you the current state of play, and asking what you'd suggest instead, as a way to determine who is and who is not entitled to access women's spaces and categories.

You don't like self-ID, fine. We also know you don't like the current competitor, biological sex.

So what do you like? What public policy do you favor, and why? Because what you've suggested so far just looks like self-ID with extra obfuscation.
 
Thermal said:
Oh, in the States its already happened (California, and more than once), but they are dialing it back. In my state, there is a threat assessment of the specific prisoner before assigning them sex specifically, where they situationally look at his pattern, how violent he has been, etc
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Maybe someday the United States will move away from third world prisons and protect all prisoners from rape. That would take away the incentive to game the system in this way.
 
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