Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[theprestige]

The conversation, you may have noted, occasionally detours from that single minded objective. We were in the midst of just such a detour.

It's not a detour, it's a dead end.

Nobody here hates transwomen. Nobody here objects to counter-cultural gender expression. Nobody here opposes the legal protection of gender expression in housing and employment.

Telling people that you identify as transgender places no obligation on those you address. It grants no entitlement to the claimant. None, that is, but what was already obliged and entitled: to treat people with the same dignity and respect regardless of their gender identity or expression.

That's what I mean, when I say gender identity is functionally meaningless, unless it's actually about sex segregation.

 

[Rolfe]

Thanks. The openness is refreshing.

Not like they are getting made to. You openly LOLed at transwomen who want to help at rape centers (I have a hard time condemning such workers) being labeled "weirdos".

Maybe they are getting a little testy at you laughing at them generically being called weirdos? Maybe they don't want their names plastered as perpetrators of sex crimes they didn't commit, and have you reposting it? You ever think about that?

Any man who thinks for one second that it's appropriate for him to insist on being present when raped women are recounting their ordeals, or, even worse, insist on "counselling" them, needs his hard drive checked. Whether he's wearing a dress or not.

And once again the problem of the innocent, decent man wading into this discussion rears its head. Some good men know what evil monsters some of their brothers can be, but others can't even imagine a man wanting to behave like that. It is a known fact that some men get off (in a big way) from rape fantasies, and hearing women recount actual rape experiences is an enormous turn-on for them. At the same time, the absolute last thing a woman who has been raped wants is for a man to be in the room - or even the building - when she's talking about her experience to get help.

Men have pretended to be female rape victims to get to sit in on group therapy sessions. Applying for a volunteer post as a rape counsellor is the next step up. To the raped woman, she's being violated all over again. There are women in that position who can't stand to have any men near them, not even their own brother or father, and decent brothers and fathers understand and give them space. There is no possible way an attempt to become a rape counsellor, from a man, is a sincere "want to help" situation. One such man, who offered to help at a crisis centre, was thanked most sincerely and offered a role where he wasn't in contact with the women who had been raped. He sued them for discrimination, because he wanted to listen to raped women describing their rapes.

Any man, "true trans" or just pretending, who uses that status to try to force himself on tearful, traumatised, terrified women, is a predator without any shadow of a doubt. Even if he never actually lays a finger on any of them.

 

[theprestige]

Thanks. The openness is refreshing.

Congrats, @Rolfe, you finally hit upon a tone the man finds pleasing. Not that his pleasure at your tone will change his treatment of you or your ideas.

 

[Thermal]

Any man who thinks for one second that it's appropriate for him to insist on being present when raped women are recounting their ordeals, or, even worse, insist on "counselling" them, needs his hard drive checked. Whether he's wearing a dress or not.

And once again the problem of the innocent, decent man wading into this discussion rears its head. Some good men know what evil monsters some of their brothers can be, but others can't even imagine a man wanting to behave like that. It is a known fact that some men get off (in a big way) from rape fantasies, and hearing women recount actual rape experiences is an enormous turn-on for them. At the same time, the absolute last thing a woman who has been raped wants is for a man to be in the room - or even the building - when she's talking about her experience to get help.

Men have pretended to be female rape victims to get to sit in on group therapy sessions. Applying for a volunteer post as a rape counsellor is the next step up. To the raped woman, she's being violated all over again. There are women in that position who can't stand to have any men near them, not even their own brother or father, and decent brothers and fathers understand and give them space. There is no possible way an attempt to become a rape counsellor, from a man, is a sincere "want to help" situation. One such man, who offered to help at a crisis centre, was thanked most sincerely and offered a role where he wasn't in contact with the women who had been raped. He sued them for discrimination, because he wanted to listen to raped women describing their rapes.

Any man, "true trans" or just pretending, who uses that status to try to force himself on tearful, traumatised, terrified women, is a predator without any shadow of a doubt. Even if he never actually lays a finger on any of them.

I don't know a lot about rape victims and who they want to be counseled by. My only experience was in getting a couple to the hospital when on the Rescue Squad. One was in I guess her late teens, and held on to me pretty tight till we got her to the ER. She was female. I was male. I think people are a lot smarter than you imagine, and know the difference between the good guys and the bad guys. Where do you get this comic book perception of people?

Eta: oh, and the nice guy thing you're mocking? You're letting the mask slip again. Most guys are pretty chill, especially in the crisis departments, where they vett out the creeps really fast. Your general dislike and distaste for men keeps shining through, assuming a priori that they should be taken as monsters as a given.

 

[Thermal]

Congrats, @Rolfe, you finally hit upon a tone the man finds pleasing. Not that his pleasure at your tone will change his treatment of you or your ideas.

This 'men v women' thing falls pretty flat, dude.

 

[d4m10n]

As do I, as you might have noticed with my deferential referring to trans folk. But Dolezal doesn't meet the bar.

I don't believe you have articulated the metaphorical bar in such a way that it's obvious why she doesn't make it. Certainly she passes as mixed race more convincingly than many males pass as females, even if we limit ourselves to Rolfe's examples from this specific iteration of the thread. She actually looks a bit like my paternal aunt, who is ~ ⅕ African by ancestry (not counting the Canary Islands, which would make her mostly African).

From where I'm sitting, Dolezal's only sin is that she wanted to be seen as something she was not assigned at birth (unlike her siblings and her children, who are actually African American) and she just went for it despite knowing that there are no powerful lobby groups (e.g. Stonewall, ACLU) dedicated to affirming her transition from a less historically oppressed group to a more historically oppressed one.

There's a difference.

No doubt there are several, but none of them really matter to me. If someone desperately wants to be something they are not, I'm going to try to respond compassionately because that is a terrible position in which to find oneself.

 

[theprestige]

This 'men v women' thing falls pretty flat, dude.

It's literally the entire basis of the controversy.

 

[Rolfe]

I don't know a lot about rape victims and who they want to be counseled by. My only experience was in getting a couple to the hospital when on the Rescue Squad. One was in I guess her late teens, and held on to me pretty tight till we got her to the ER. She was female. I was male. I think people are a lot smarter than you imagine, and know the difference between the good guys and the bad guys. Where do you get this comic book perception of people?

I think a woman in that situation will welcome rescue by anyone who isn't her attacker. The PTSD and the primal fear of men takes longer to set in. Maybe read some articles about this by the women who actually run these centres, the state the women are often in, and the steps they have had to take to keep pervy men out since like forever.

 

[Thermal]

I don't believe you have articulated the metaphorical bar in such a way that it's obvious why she doesn't make it.

Dolezal wears literal blackface, man.

From where I'm sitting, her only sin is that she wanted to be seen as something she was not assigned at birth

Yeah, white girl from Kansas wasn't quite exotic enough for her. She changed her name to something very African sounding (despite not identifying as African). Nothing about her words and actions suggests anything but "this cultural appropriation is da bomb".

 

[Thermal]

It's literally the entire basis of the controversy.

It totally is not. It just makes your side seem more palatable to reframe it in those terms.

 

[theprestige]

Dolezal wears literal blackface, man.

Yeah, white girl from Kansas wasn't quite exotic enough for her. She changed her name to something very African sounding (despite not identifying as African). Nothing about her words and actions suggests anything but "this cultural appropriation is da bomb".

Yaniv wears literal womanface, man.

Yeah, biological male from Canadia wasn't quite feminine enough for him. He changed his name to something very feminine sounding. Nothing about his words and actions suggests anything but "this sexual appropriation is da bomb".

 

[theprestige]

It totally is not. It just makes your side seem more palatable to reframe it in those terms.

It totally is. There's a reason all the controversy is about access to sex segregated spaces. It's literally about men trying to impose on women.

Even if you believe the imposition is justified.

 

[Thermal]

It totally is. There's a reason all the controversy is about access to sex segregated spaces. It's literally about men trying to impose on women.

Even if you believe the imposition is justified.

No. It's about women trying to jettison transwomen out of places the women don't have a pure sex based claim on.

 

[Rolfe]

Such as?

 

[Thermal]

Yaniv wears literal womanface, man

There is no womanface.

 

[d4m10n]

Dolezal wears literal blackface, man.

Didn't you take exception to the "womanface" slur earlier?

Yeah, white girl from Kansas wasn't quite exotic enough for her.

It definitely makes it harder to do NCAAP activism.

She changed her name to something very African sounding (despite not identifying as African).

So did Ann Obama.

Nothing about her words and actions suggests anything but "this cultural appropriation is da bomb".

I don't get the sense that you're carefully thinking through whether your arguments would work against transgender identity or not.

 

[Thermal]

Didn't you take exception to the "womanface" slur earlier?

Yes. Blackface is real. Womanface is a rhetorical device that doesn't exist.

It definitely makes it harder to do NCAAP activism.

The what's this kind of activism now?

So did Ann Obama.

Come on, man.

I don't get the sense that you're carefully thinking through whether your arguments would work against transgender identity or not.

Oh, I definitely see the parallels..Have patience. Or maybe dont bother, cuz I'm losing mine (not wrt you).

 

[d4m10n]

Blackface is real. Womanface is a rhetorical device that doesn't exist.

I've seen males putting on makeup to look like females.

I've seen whites putting on makeup to look like blacks.

Care to guess which one I've seen way, way, way more often?

The what's this kind of activism now?

Please pardon the typo; you can find the correct spelling on her wiki.

 

[Thermal]

I've seen males putting on makeup to look like females.

I've seen whites putting on makeup to look like blacks.

Care to guess which one I've seen way, way, way more often?

You mean like Benny Hill comedic makeup? Still, I'd certainly hope you would not be hanging around many people rocking the AL Jolson look.

Please pardon the typo, but you can find the correct spelling on her wiki.

Just thought we might have some fun with the alternate acronym meaning

 

[Rolfe]

I'll say this again. If a trans-identifying man wants to do good and help, go volunteer with the local pet rescue. Or become a retained firefighter. Or volunteer to tidy up old people's gardens. Or sign up to help with meals on wheels. Or in a soup kitchen feeding the homeless in the city centre. I must say I have never heard of one doing any of these things, but as they're uncontroversial, maybe that's why.

Just stay the hell away from women who have been raped. You have nothing to offer them, no comfort to give, no experience to lend empathy to their plight, and they absolutely do not want to perceive your masculine body and voice anywhere near them. And we all know why you're trying to do this, and it's ain't altruism and it ain't pretty.