• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 32

Vixen, you have still not provided the name of the "seasoned detective" who proved the climbing video was "heavily doctored". Why not just admit that it's not true instead of doing the usual ignoring it thinking we'll just forget?
 
Napoleoni was Head of Homicide. She was experienced in attending murder scenes. Or maybe, like Mignini, she also 'had it in' for Knox and Sollecito, rather than bother finding the real perps? Is that your theory? How plausible do you think it sounds?
Hmmm...you do know that Napoleoni was removed from her position as Head of Homicide? That she was convicted and sentenced to 3 yrs. 3 months in prison for abusing her police powers? Hmmm...she really was "bent"!

Napoleoni was convinced that Knox was guilty from the beginning. She didn't hide her dislike for Knox at all.
 
What wrongdoing? It is classic nonsense for criminals to blame the police or the prosecutor for their misfortune instead of taking responsibility for their own behaviour that put them in prison.


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There were numerous abuses committed by the prosecution

*During the interrogation the following happened

Denied access to a lawyer and was not given access to a lawyer for three days until the first hearing

The interrogation was not taped

Denied access to a neutral interpreter



*The prosecution told numerous lies



List of Prosecution and Press lies told about Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito | Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito



Lies & Misinformation



In addition to the lies listed in the links, Amanda was lied to she had HIV.



*A computer belonging to Amanda which had photographs of Amanda and Meredith getting along was destroyed by the police.



*The prosecution suppressed evidence and committed fraud on a massive scale. The list below is a small example



  • The prosecution hid the results of early and decisive DNA testing excluding Sollecito as the sexual assailant, securing on improper grounds the pretrial incarceration of Sollecito and Knox (and Lumumba) to the severe prejudice of the defense.
  • The prosecution concealed the initial results for tests performed on the two key items of evidence , i.e., the kitchen knife (Rep. 36B) and the bra-clasp (Rep. 165B), and instead, produced only the results of suspicious “do over” tests (reruns), without disclosing the data from the initial tests or even the fact that the subsequent tests are “do overs”.
  • The prosecution concealed that the kitchen knife profile was generated within a series of tests for which 90 percent of the results have been suppressed, strongly suggesting the occurrence of a severe contamination event that the prosecution continues to hide.
  • The prosecution claims that contamination of the bra clasp was impossible, even though the bra clasp profile was processed during a series of tests for which there is documented proof of contamination.
  • The prosecution falsely portrayed the DNA lab as pristine and perfectly maintained, even though the lab’s own documents demonstrate that it was plagued with repeated contamination events and machine malfunctions that were known to the lab.
  • The prosecution has withheld the results from a massive number of DNA tests (well over 100), including probably exculpatory profiles relating to the sexual assault and the secondary crime scene downstairs.
  • The prosecution has hidden all of the records of the DNA amplification process—the most likely place for laboratory contamination to have occurred—including all of the contamination control tests for this process.


The above shows numerous abuses were committed by the police and prosecution but guilters ignore this and falsely claim there was no wrongdoing from the Mignini and his cronies which proves my point guilters are boot lickers and mouthpieces for the prosecution when they lie there was no wrongdoing from the prosecution.



Vixen claims Amanda was responsible for being convicted due to her behaviour. How can this be true when the prosecution had no case against Amanda which was proved by the actions the prosecution had to resort as detailed above.
 
Well, no, Batistelli knows what time he turned up and also the exact time recorded on police logs when Sollecito first rang his sister and then the police [actually, the Carabinieri]. Sollecito rang after his arrival. Batistelli says the pair were visibly surprised and embarrassed at his appearance as they clearly were not expecting him. Batistelli looked into Filomena's room and said he noticed the glass was on top of the clothing strewn across the floor. Police are trained to be observant and that is what he observed, as did others.
LOL. If Battistelli showed up at 12:35 as he claimed, then just how did he and Marsi miss FIVE phone calls made by AK and RS between 12:35 and 1:00?

Amanda:
12:35 to Filomena lasting 48 seconds
12:47 to Edda Mellas lasting 1.5 minutes

Raffaele:

12:40 to sister lasting 39 seconds
12:51 to 112 lasting 2 min 49 seconds
12:52 to 112 lasting 57 seconds.

That's these two police officers who are "trained to be observant" missing 5 phone calls totaling 6 min 43 seconds while neither were left alone. Who trained them to be observant? Mr. Magoo?
 
As per protocol, Batistelli lodged his report based on objective observation - without evaluation or judgement - as soon as he was back at the police station. As he had stayed around to see Altieri kick down the door, his immediate observations are important. Same day. On the spot.
Did he include the 5 phone calls made by RS and AK during the time he says he was there? Hint: NO.
 
There are plenty of cases of people having their sentences annulled, Russell (Babes in the Wood), Barry George, Casey Anthony, Ryan Ferguson, Damien Echols, etc., etc, who've all had their sentences quashed (Russell was reconvicted of murder some many years later) but it doesn't mean the legal facts do not follow them.


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Casey Anthony was never convicted of murder so, no, her sentence was never annulled.
If convictions are annulled, the only legal fact that 'follows them' is that they were acquitted.
 
There were numerous abuses committed by the prosecution

*During the interrogation the following happened

Denied access to a lawyer and was not given access to a lawyer for three days until the first hearing

The interrogation was not taped

Denied access to a neutral interpreter



*The prosecution told numerous lies



List of Prosecution and Press lies told about Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito | Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito



Lies & Misinformation



In addition to the lies listed in the links, Amanda was lied to she had HIV.



*A computer belonging to Amanda which had photographs of Amanda and Meredith getting along was destroyed by the police.



*The prosecution suppressed evidence and committed fraud on a massive scale. The list below is a small example



  • The prosecution hid the results of early and decisive DNA testing excluding Sollecito as the sexual assailant, securing on improper grounds the pretrial incarceration of Sollecito and Knox (and Lumumba) to the severe prejudice of the defense.
  • The prosecution concealed the initial results for tests performed on the two key items of evidence , i.e., the kitchen knife (Rep. 36B) and the bra-clasp (Rep. 165B), and instead, produced only the results of suspicious “do over” tests (reruns), without disclosing the data from the initial tests or even the fact that the subsequent tests are “do overs”.
  • The prosecution concealed that the kitchen knife profile was generated within a series of tests for which 90 percent of the results have been suppressed, strongly suggesting the occurrence of a severe contamination event that the prosecution continues to hide.
  • The prosecution claims that contamination of the bra clasp was impossible, even though the bra clasp profile was processed during a series of tests for which there is documented proof of contamination.
  • The prosecution falsely portrayed the DNA lab as pristine and perfectly maintained, even though the lab’s own documents demonstrate that it was plagued with repeated contamination events and machine malfunctions that were known to the lab.
  • The prosecution has withheld the results from a massive number of DNA tests (well over 100), including probably exculpatory profiles relating to the sexual assault and the secondary crime scene downstairs.
  • The prosecution has hidden all of the records of the DNA amplification process—the most likely place for laboratory contamination to have occurred—including all of the contamination control tests for this process.


The above shows numerous abuses were committed by the police and prosecution but guilters ignore this and falsely claim there was no wrongdoing from the Mignini and his cronies which proves my point guilters are boot lickers and mouthpieces for the prosecution when they lie there was no wrongdoing from the prosecution.



Vixen claims Amanda was responsible for being convicted due to her behaviour. How can this be true when the prosecution had no case against Amanda which was proved by the actions the prosecution had to resort as detailed above.
A quibble. The police and/or prosecutor in 2007 were not obligated by Italian law to tape (sound or video record) questionings or interrogations. This type of recording for the purpose of documenting the start & stop times, who was present, who spoke, and the verbatim of the questions and answers and any physical actions was allowed by law, but not required. What was required under Italian law was the documentation in writing by the police or prosecutor (or a person acting for them, such as a clerk) of those elements of the questioning/interrogation. It is this written documentation that is not available (claimed by the authorities not to have been done) for the impugned interrogations. For the other earlier (witness) questionings, the police did document in writing and also used sound recording. They even had sound recordings of the various persons of interest who were in the police station lobby or elsewhere in the building. Also, Knox and Sollecito, and possibly others, had their phone conversation intercepted and recorded.

The failure of the police and prosecutor to document in writing in accordance with law the impugned interrogations of Knox and of Sollecito suggests to me that the police and prosecutor, prior to those interrogations, had decid,ed that unlawful or even criminal methods might be used during the interrogations in order to coerce the information the police and prosecutor desired.

In comparison, consider the case of the two Italian police officers who were convicted of raping two American female college students in Italy. The young women had been at a tavern or similar facility, and had found that there was no available transportation back to their residence. The two police officers offered to drive them back. When the four reached the inside of the residence, the police officers raped the students. The officers were later tried and convicted. One piece of evidence against those officers was that they had not called in by radio to their headquarters that they were giving the two women a ride back to the women's residence; the officers were required by police regulations to notify their headquarters of their activities and locations. IIUC, not following those regulations was considered evidence of intent.
 
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Here are a couple showing the terrazzoView attachment 60291View attachment 60292. It might not be visible to a sackful of hedgehogs in a darkened room, but on the other hand....

Hoots

There is a shuttered window to the left (bottom picture) which is completely occluded by the trees. You can't see the door to the boys' entrance either. All you can see is a part of the roof terrace.


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Granting, arguendo, that this is true, If Guede walked around the cottage on the walkway, he would have only walked on the grass for a short distance. And the photos clearly show that the ground under the windows was covered with leaves. Further, the rain had happened the night before; it's certainly possible that not every area of ground around the cottage was muddy, depending on drainage and soil type. Finally, as I mentioned, and you ignored as usual, it is possible that Guede climbed from the planter onto the top of the lower window frame, which would have definitely avoided any contact with grass or soil.


As I said, no one has claimed that every mistake or instance of misconduct was Mignini's fault, or, in this case, his fault alone.


So, by whom would they have suspected that it had been staged? That's a direct question, Vixen; kindly answer.


To expand on Jack's responses, if Guede came in the window, it's possible, even likely, that he partially closed the shutters behind him, either to make the cottage appear more as it did before he entered, or to conceal any lights he might show, or both. It's also possible that he pulled them partially shut simply incident to climbing through. You may object, "Why didn't he close them all the way?" He might not have considered it necessary, or, he might have suddenly realized that Kercher was in the cottage.


:id:
You owe me a new irony meter. Further, and I should have mentioned this before, it is generally not possible to prove a negative. If you don't know this, you ought to have known it. You and other guilters have thrown out a few factoids that could at best arguably show Guede's entering through the window would have been difficult or unlikely. But that's not good enough. You would have to show that it's actually impossible. And nothing you've provided even comes within shouting distance of that.


As Hellmann said, "Anything is possible!" but that's not the duty of the court. The court has to come to a conclusion AFTER hearing ALL of the evidence and not before. You can say, 'Oh Guede could have climbed up without leaving any trace of sodden weather and he could have done this... and he could have done that... He could have worn galoshes that he took off just before climbing. He might have worn burglars gloves and, as a basketball player, he had reach and fit shoulder muscles....etcetera."

But the court decided it was proven that the burglary was staged, and not just because of the state of the wall, window or shutters.

We are not dealing with alternatives here or what you personally ideally would have wished the court concluded.


Let me help. Were I to say, for example, "Rosemary West is innocent," perhaps because I feel sorry for a woman serving a whole life sentence for murder. So I argue all kinds of possible alternatives. What are you going to do? You are going to shrug and say, 'Well, that is not what the merits court (the trial proper) decided when it weighed up ALL of the facts from ALL of the evidence [not just yours!]" That is how the rule of law works. You won't give a toss about my opinion as Rosemary West remains firmly convicted even if some random somewhere believes it to be a miscarriage of justice.

What you call 'factoids' are simply the legal facts settled in court. What you call 'guilters' are simply people who understand the rule of law, because that is all we have, and there is the safety net of appeal.

So whilst you and Jack by the Hedge believe strongly that Guede could have climbed in via that method and that the burglary wasn't staged - although I believe this is more wishful magical thinking than any real knowledge of the issues, scientific, forensic and as argued in court by experts in that type of thing - I accept that the courts found it to be staged and I haven't seen any convincing evidence that anyone was doing Guede any favours or had any liking for him.

I mean it is possible that Guede got into the cottage that way, just as it is possible, as Trump argues, that he was only convicted of multiple corruption because the Judge's daughter was a Democrat senator.

As Hellmann said, 'Anything is possible" But that is not the function of criminal law courts. It is a crude basic system of ascertaining the balance of probability to a high bar that the case against the defendant/s is proven AFTER all the evidence, testimony and legal argument is heard, by ALL of the parties and as per codified statute in the case of Italy.

So does your opinion or mine matter as to determining guilt or innocence? No, it does not.



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He turned 21 the next month after the murder since you want to be pedantic. What's the difference between 20 yr 11 month or 21yr 0 month old's athletic ability? You're still not a 20 or 21 year old semi-professional athlete, either. And he was a semi-professional basketball player as he played for Liomatic Perugia basketball team (John Follain). The Guardian also wrote, "Perugia basketball team lists a Rudy Hermann Guede as having played guard for the team from 2004 to 2005. I don't know why you persist on denying the facts.



They were walking around the building in several places not just on the area below the window which had foliage and not bare dirt/mud. Why do you persist in claiming climbing the wall had to have left dirt/mud or debris when it was never established by any evidence other than what the police assumed? The police also thought RS's shoes were a 'perfect match' to the bloody shoeprints and that the rock was thrown from inside. So much for what they assumed without any testing.


Nota Bene!-they assumed that it was a staged break-in because they hadn't done an iota of investigation. It's called jumping to conclusions with no investigation. You continue to ignore the testimony of Romanelli who said she saw glass both above and below items. Maybe she was paid off to say that? Or maybe she was just trying to help out a couple kids like Jovana Popovic!

:dl:
Has it occurred to you that after breaking the window and climbing in, he pulled the green shutters closer together to hide the broken window from any of the cottage occupants which would have been in plain view as they walked closer to the front door down the driveway?
Someone with actual expert knowledge of ballistics, F. Pasquale, disagrees with you. But what the hell does he know? The fact the prosecution had NO expert testify otherwise should tell you something.


Your continued insistence that RS and AK are cold-blooded killers is pathetic. You continued insistence that every defense expert, witness, and acquitting court was 'bent', 'paid off' or 'incompetent' is pathetic. You're continued insistence that negative TMB results don't mean no blood is present is pathetic. Your continued insistence that Knox's DNA in Kercher's blood in the bathroom was also blood is pathetic. You're insistence that Knox was jealous or hated Kercher when no evidence of that exists is pathetic.


Let's have a look at your logic. "Guede was a semi-pro basketball player, therefore it proves he came in by the window and not that he was let in by either Knox or Mez by reason that he knew both of them and also the guys downstairs". There is no logic flowing from that at all.

Next: "Filomena saw glass not only on top of her clothes strewn about the floor she saw some shards underneath". Oh dear, this fails to acknowledge that of course some shards of shattered glass will fall on the floor as well as on the clothes.

You omit to mention the cards and the bits of paper scattered about Filomena's room - one with Knox' shoe print on it - which was also scattered on top of the duvet covering the body. Please try to understand how chronology works. Which happened first...?

You omit to mention that forensic police could find no trace at all of Guede in Filomena's room. Please don't try to argue that the forensic police were biased in favour of Guede instead of just doing their expert job.

You omit to mention there WAS forensic evidence left by Knox in HER DNA mixed with Mez' DNA in Filomena's room. Please do not try the old canard, 'Oh but she lived there so of course there will be hers and Mez' DNA mixed together'. Please try to understand why the court found it a significant finding.

You omit to mention the perp trailed glass into the murder room and that there was a ladies size 37 shoeprint found there in the victim's blood. As forensics show clearly that Guede left the building directly out of the murder room to the front door and that the smashed window happened after the murder, the person who trailed in the glass is the person who staged the burglary, scattered bits of paper over the duvet covering the body, and before locking the door after themself.

Luminol as highlighted by the scientific police clearly shows bare footprints compatible* with Knox and Sollecito outside and facing the murder room door, and which someone had tried to wash away.

Mignini who interviewed both said Sollecito was 'icy cold' and he repeats this in his recent book in more prosaic terms.

So, no, not my view, the objective view as observed by trained criminology experts.


*'Compatible with' is the language a scientist uses to indicate high significance levels; it does not mean ambiguity, as you've tried to argue in the past.
 
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Ahem...you claimed she was LYING ON A SHEET: "A cop who looked in on the scene said the fact the body had been placed on a sheet and moved eighteen inches towards the closet informed him that whoever did it, intended to dispose of the body later." (post # 2880)

Your own evidence says no such thing:
"4. Meredith's body lay on top of a pillow, a sock and a towel. An additional towel and fitted bed sheet were found next to Meredith's body and under the duvet."

What part of "next to Meredith's body" is confusing? Instead of continuing to insist on something your own evidence disproves, why not just admit she wasn't lying on a sheet?


Do you have a memory problem? We've discussed this many times but yet again:
Knox does not have to explain it nor can she if she wasn't there that night. She testified she didn't know how it got there.
If she were guilty, knew how it got there, and needed to explain it away, all she had to do was say that Meredith borrowed it for her desk as Knox wasn't staying there at night so she didn't need it.
Thinking she wouldn't give an innocent explanation for it instead of just saying "I don't know" is the same illogical thinking that they'd have left and pointed out the bathmat footprint to the police if it had belonged to Sollecito and not Guede.


LOL! Oh, please, stop with that rubbish. It's as dumb as claiming her noise violation ticket is evidence that she was a habitual criminal.

Yet again, that same lack of logic or common sense is being displayed. If they went to all the trouble of staging a burglary, why claim nothing was stolen? Does that make sense to you? Apparently, it does.

For goodness sake: there was a sheet from Mez' bed missing all together. Mez did not need to borrow Knox' lamp as she had one of her own.

As for Sollecito saying nothing has been taken, obviously this was because Police Officer Battistelli arrived unexpectedly and thus, knowing there was nothing taken (how did he know that?!) he precluded the fact of nothing taken by making out to the Carabinieri at the other end that he had already done an inspection of the 'burglary', knowing it was now too late, with Battistelli suddenly turning up.


Of course Knox knows how her lamp ended up under Mez' bed in the murder room: Knox put it there herself, perhaps to search for something she might have dropped. The pair said they peered in through the keyhole. Perhaps the crack in the door happened when they tried to break it down realising the lamp was accidentally still there but the key was already disposed of.


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Ah, yes...the old "the prosecution failed to prove evidence of guilt BARD" loophole used by so many courts to let guilty people off!
Wow... a 20 year-old, unknown, middle-class, language student was a "powerful" person? Who knew? Or maybe Trump, who at the time was just a NY land developer, was so powerful that the courts of Italy, including the SC, were just terrified of crossing him!


Let's face it, there were a lot of people with sweaty palms hoping for million dollar book deals and Netflix rights. Plus the MAGA brigade with their ignorant world view.


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Let's face it, there were a lot of people with sweaty palms hoping for million dollar book deals and Netflix rights. Plus the MAGA brigade with their ignorant world view.
"Let's face it" is an alarm bell for me. You know it's pre-begging the question and what follows will be fantasy.

I'm going to gruesomely murder my friend and get away with it and then cash in with a book deal. Want in? Anyone else we barely know you can think of to rope in too?

Pathetic. But it's another brick in the wall you built to keep reality from spoiling your fairy story.
 
No, he wasn't convicted of abuse of office. <snip of red herring about statement of Sollecito's rights>
Hmmm. I wonder whether you actually believe this, or whether you're just pretending to. From the linked article (which you seem not to have read, although given your track record, there's no way to be sure):

FLORENCE, Italy -- Giuliano Mignini, the lead investigator who successfully prosecuted Seattle native Amanda Knox of murder, was convicted Friday in Florence of abuse of office.​
A judge decided that Mignini abused his office by wiretapping several journalists and police officials. . . .​
But Knox's American attorney, while saying he respects the Italian justice system, noted that in many jurisdictions, including the U.S., a prosecutor's office wouldn't have proceeded with a case while it faced an indictment.​
Last summer, an Italian court decided to delay a decision in the accusations against Mignini. That allowed him to continue to pursue his case and trial against Knox.​
"I don't think it's good for a prosecutor's office to prosecute a case when they are under indictment," said Knox's lawyer, Theodore Simon of Philadelphia.​
By doing so, the fairness of the trial and integrity of the verdict can be called into question, he said. And he noted that Italy's Supreme Court had faulted the prosecutor's office for violating Knox's rights and supressing some of the comments she made to Italian police, Despite Friday's conviction, Mignini will be allowed to continue his magisterial duties. If he is not convicted of any other crimes in the next five years, Friday's action will be expunged.​

And, naturally, you completely ignored the two letters from the CPJ protesting Mignini's intimidation and harassment of journalists.

As for your claim of insults; can I remind you that it was YOU who accused me, as anyone accepting of the trial and appeal courts' verdicts as guilty and proven, as being conspiracy theorists.
Assuming you didn't just pull that out of an orifice, you're presumably referring to this post. What I actually said was:

The hilited [The idea that there was some kind of conspiracy to 'get the American woman' is not mine.] is your usual laughable spin. Of course you never claimed there was a conspiracy to frame Knox; rather, you claimed that she and her ex-boyfriend are obviously guilty, but that their murder convictions were overturned because of, inter alia, corrupt Italian Supreme Court justices, her ex-boyfriend's purported Mafia connections, and improper pressure from the US State Department. Further, you ignored the overwhelming and incontrovertible evidence of gross misconduct and incompetence on the part of the Italian authorities in this case, and you also ignored the experts in biology and forensic science in the thread who attempted to correct your many misapprehensions. So par for the course. :rolleyes:

This was in response to your being deliberately obtuse and pretending that someone who'd cited this thread as an example of your conspiracy mongering was somehow implying that you were pro-innocence, as if those are the only sort of Knox-related conspiracy theories. :rolleyes:

In addition, I wrote this post a couple of months later, in response to your request for evidence when someone accused you of routinely lying (which was, unsurprisingly, met with an avalanche of examples):

I'll also add all the lies you parrot about Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. And I'm not talking about your claiming they're guilty. You are entitled to you own opinion on that. You are not, however, as the late US Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan famously said, entitled to your own facts. [Bolding added]​
You routinely tell obvious, long-debunked lies about the pair, even when you've been repeatedly corrected. The fact that they're public figures doesn't magically make that acceptable.​

So, no, I most certainly did not claim that everyone who believes the initial guilty verdicts were correct is a conspiracy theorist. What I will gladly own is that everyone who claims that the pair were acquitted due to "corrupt Italian Supreme Court justices, [Sollecito's] purported Mafia connections, and improper pressure from the US State Department" is a conspiracy theorist, because there is no credible evidence for any of this.

As has been pointed out to you elsewhere, if you don't want to be accused of being a conspiracy theorist, then you shouldn't act like one.

I merely pointed out that on the contrary, your claim that the pair were only convicted because 'of Mignini' is the real conspiracy theory . . .
No. This is merely your straw-man caricature of the pro-innocence position. As has been repeatedly discussed, and you continue to ignore, because you think it makes the other side's argument look weaker, no one here thinks it was only Mignini. Again, he didn't personally bungle the DNA testing of the knife or the bra clasp. And in any case, a conspiracy requires multiple participants.

Further, as has also been discussed, and you also continue to ignore, no one thinks he just decided to conspire with the police and his staff to frame two people whom he knew to be innocent. For reasons that have been thoroughly discussed, Mignini and the police focused on Knox early on, and they failed to change their focus, even when the evidence should have led them to do so.

. . . as if Italy isn't a highly civilised country, with an advanced legal system, even as compared to the USA that mostly doesn't even bother with trials these days . . .
We understand, from reading your posts in other T&E threads, that you believe wrongful murder convictions practically never happen in Western Europe. But the evidence says otherwise.

. . . albeit one that is constantly having to fight mafia and freemason influence, as we saw.
Erm, pardon me, but your tinfoil hat is showing. :tinfoil

ECHR actually dismissed almost all of Knox' claims.
No. You just pulled that out of an orifice, as usual, because you have to attempt to belittle or otherwise minimize everything that goes in Knox's favor. There were four claims: Lack of legal counsel, lack of a fair interpreter, ill treatment during the interrogation, and failure to be notified promptly of the charges against her. Only the last one was dismissed, on the grounds that she was notified seven months later. (I'm rather perplexed by that, but I'm not interested in investing a lot of time in attempting to find out what the Court's reasoning was.)

You have, in the past, repeatedly banged on about how the Court found there was no violation of the convention due to ill treatment of Knox during the interrogation, as if that's some sort of vindication of Italy. But you always ignore the fact that the Court ruled that there was a violation of the convention due to Mignini's failure to investigate those allegations.

So, even if we give you half-credit for the ill-treatment claim, which I wouldn't, that's only 1.5 out of 4 claims dismissed. Fail, as usual.

It upheld the right to a lawyer one because Della Vedova misled it into believing Knox was a legally designated 'accused person' or defendant, when as of that point she was not an official suspect nor had she been accused of anything.
Blatantly false, wishful thinking on your part, as if Italy had just said the right magic words, they could have somehow demonstrated that Knox wasn't technically a suspect, when she clearly was. More on this later.

The pair had their convictions annulled because of a loophole usually used by politiicans such as Andreotti or Berlusconi. Nobody considers either of these two as really being innocent. They just got away with it as powerful people. IMV getting away with it is nothing to be proud of.
Typical guilter dreck. You've been corrected on this many times, yet you continue to parrot this lie. I wonder why that is.
 
"Let's face it" is an alarm bell for me. You know it's pre-begging the question and what follows will be fantasy.

I'm going to gruesomely murder my friend and get away with it and then cash in with a book deal. Want in? Anyone else we barely know you can think of to rope in too?

Pathetic. But it's another brick in the wall you built to keep reality from spoiling your fairy story.


It has been known for persons still of adolescent personality to plan such crimes for thrills. For example, Brianna Ghey, carefully planned in advance, plus the girl who, with her boyfriend, planned to kill her mother and sister over a meal at MacDonalds, they then watched Twilight film eating sweets after the savage deed as though it was perfectly normal behaviour. All kinds of similar thrill kills in America; for example, the two guys enacting the Scream [corr] murders, complete with scary masks, as a 'prank' on a teenage girl, whom they crept up on and butchered in her home, or the Memphis Three with the claimed 'heavy metal' satanist aspect (Echols was obsessed with the occult). Yes, a lot of people around Knox in particular were like vultures telling the press she could cash in with two-million dollar book deals if she could somehow escape the charges. Her friend Madison Paxton sold the initial story to ROLLING STONE starting the 'railroading' hoax of 'tags teams of twelve from Rome holding her captive for 53 hours to force her to confess'.

You can call it pathetic but the pair have made a lot of money out of this. Echols has made lots of money since.




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Hmmm. I wonder whether you actually believe this, or whether you're just pretending to. From the linked article (which you seem not to have read, although given your track record, there's no way to be sure):

FLORENCE, Italy -- Giuliano Mignini, the lead investigator who successfully prosecuted Seattle native Amanda Knox of murder, was convicted Friday in Florence of abuse of office.​
A judge decided that Mignini abused his office by wiretapping several journalists and police officials. . . .​
But Knox's American attorney, while saying he respects the Italian justice system, noted that in many jurisdictions, including the U.S., a prosecutor's office wouldn't have proceeded with a case while it faced an indictment.​
Last summer, an Italian court decided to delay a decision in the accusations against Mignini. That allowed him to continue to pursue his case and trial against Knox.​
"I don't think it's good for a prosecutor's office to prosecute a case when they are under indictment," said Knox's lawyer, Theodore Simon of Philadelphia.​
By doing so, the fairness of the trial and integrity of the verdict can be called into question, he said. And he noted that Italy's Supreme Court had faulted the prosecutor's office for violating Knox's rights and supressing some of the comments she made to Italian police, Despite Friday's conviction, Mignini will be allowed to continue his magisterial duties. If he is not convicted of any other crimes in the next five years, Friday's action will be expunged.​

And, naturally, you completely ignored the two letters from the CPJ protesting Mignini's intimidation and harassment of journalists.


Assuming you didn't just pull that out of an orifice, you're presumably referring to this post. What I actually said was:

The hilited [The idea that there was some kind of conspiracy to 'get the American woman' is not mine.] is your usual laughable spin. Of course you never claimed there was a conspiracy to frame Knox; rather, you claimed that she and her ex-boyfriend are obviously guilty, but that their murder convictions were overturned because of, inter alia, corrupt Italian Supreme Court justices, her ex-boyfriend's purported Mafia connections, and improper pressure from the US State Department. Further, you ignored the overwhelming and incontrovertible evidence of gross misconduct and incompetence on the part of the Italian authorities in this case, and you also ignored the experts in biology and forensic science in the thread who attempted to correct your many misapprehensions. So par for the course. :rolleyes:

This was in response to your being deliberately obtuse and pretending that someone who'd cited this thread as an example of your conspiracy mongering was somehow implying that you were pro-innocence, as if those are the only sort of Knox-related conspiracy theories. :rolleyes:

In addition, I wrote this post a couple of months later, in response to your request for evidence when someone accused you of routinely lying (which was, unsurprisingly, met with an avalanche of examples):

I'll also add all the lies you parrot about Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. And I'm not talking about your claiming they're guilty. You are entitled to you own opinion on that. You are not, however, as the late US Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan famously said, entitled to your own facts. [Bolding added]​
You routinely tell obvious, long-debunked lies about the pair, even when you've been repeatedly corrected. The fact that they're public figures doesn't magically make that acceptable.​

So, no, I most certainly did not claim that everyone who believes the initial guilty verdicts were correct is a conspiracy theorist. What I will gladly own is that everyone who claims that the pair were acquitted due to "corrupt Italian Supreme Court justices, [Sollecito's] purported Mafia connections, and improper pressure from the US State Department" is a conspiracy theorist, because there is no credible evidence for any of this.

As has been pointed out to you elsewhere, if you don't want to be accused of being a conspiracy theorist, then you shouldn't act like one.


No. This is merely your straw-man caricature of the pro-innocence position. As has been repeatedly discussed, and you continue to ignore, because you think it makes the other side's argument look weaker, no one here thinks it was only Mignini. Again, he didn't personally bungle the DNA testing of the knife or the bra clasp. And in any case, a conspiracy requires multiple participants.

Further, as has also been discussed, and you also continue to ignore, no one thinks he just decided to conspire with the police and his staff to frame two people whom he knew to be innocent. For reasons that have been thoroughly discussed, Mignini and the police focused on Knox early on, and they failed to change their focus, even when the evidence should have led them to do so.


We understand, from reading your posts in other T&E threads, that you believe wrongful murder convictions practically never happen in Western Europe. But the evidence says otherwise.


Erm, pardon me, but your tinfoil hat is showing. :tinfoil


No. You just pulled that out of an orifice, as usual, because you have to attempt to belittle or otherwise minimize everything that goes in Knox's favor. There were four claims: Lack of legal counsel, lack of a fair interpreter, ill treatment during the interrogation, and failure to be notified promptly of the charges against her. Only the last one was dismissed, on the grounds that she was notified seven months later. (I'm rather perplexed by that, but I'm not interested in investing a lot of time in attempting to find out what the Court's reasoning was.)

You have, in the past, repeatedly banged on about how the Court found there was no violation of the convention due to ill treatment of Knox during the interrogation, as if that's some sort of vindication of Italy. But you always ignore the fact that the Court ruled that there was a violation of the convention due to Mignini's failure to investigate those allegations.

So, even if we give you half-credit for the ill-treatment claim, which I wouldn't, that's only 1.5 out of 4 claims dismissed. Fail, as usual.


Blatantly false, wishful thinking on your part, as if Italy had just said the right magic words, they could have somehow demonstrated that Knox wasn't technically a suspect, when she clearly was. More on this later.


Typical guilter dreck. You've been corrected on this many times, yet you continue to parrot this lie. I wonder why that is.


It's very strange that the exact same scientists who identified evidence against Guede are suddenly corrupt and incompetent when they found forensic evidence against Knox and Sollecito under exactly the same conditions and testing.

You are the one who has chosen his own facts. 'It's all contaminated' when it comes to the latter but obvious when it's Guede's, even though his DNA on Mez' sweatshirt cuffs were in the same place as the lonely bra hook found under the pillow under the body with Sollecito's clear and full DNA signature on it. Imagine cutting or tearing the bra off and the hook. Anyone would think the 'burglar' was staging a work of art as in creating a theatrical murder scene for laughs instead of just grabbing Filomena's valuables and beating it.


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Let's have a look at your logic. "Guede was a semi-pro basketball player, therefore it proves he came in by the window and not that he was let in by either Knox or Mez by reason that he knew both of them and also the guys downstairs". There is no logic flowing from that at all.
No, let's have a look at Vixen's. It will be a short look. There can be no logic flowing from something never claimed.

You omit to mention that forensic police could find no trace at all of Guede in Filomena's room. Please don't try to argue that the forensic police were biased in favour of Guede instead of just doing their expert job.
The forensic police had no idea who Guede was. So they could hardly be biased toward him in doing their job, despite how poorly they did it. Guede wore gloves when he entered through the window.

the person who trailed in the glass is the person who staged the burglary, scattered bits of paper over the duvet covering the body, and before locking the door after themself.
And the person who staged the burglary left a bathmat with blood on it that they could have easily removed? Still waiting for your explanation as to why Sollectito or Knox left the bathmat in plain view. For that matter, why did Guede split? Why didn't he help with the cleanup and "staging"?

Luminol as highlighted by the scientific police clearly shows bare footprints compatible* with Knox and Sollecito outside and facing the murder room door, and which someone had tried to wash away.
Did any of these footprints contain Meredith's blood? Meredith's DNA?
 
Let's face it, there were a lot of people with sweaty palms hoping for million dollar book deals and Netflix rights. Plus the MAGA brigade with their ignorant world view.
That explains the bitterness exuded by Nadeau, Vogt & Pisa to this day. Who in the "MAGA brigade"?
 
It's very strange that the exact same scientists who identified evidence against Guede are suddenly corrupt and incompetent when they found forensic evidence against Knox and Sollecito under exactly the same conditions and testing.
So no difference between LCN DNA and non-LCN DNA?

You are the one who has chosen his own facts. 'It's all contaminated' when it comes to the latter but obvious when it's Guede's, even though his DNA on Mez' sweatshirt cuffs were in the same place as the lonely bra hook found under the pillow under the body with Sollecito's clear and full DNA signature on it.
Same conditions? Nope. That would mean the times found would have to be the same or at least not 6-8 weeks apart.

Imagine cutting or tearing the bra off and the hook. Anyone would think the 'burglar' was staging a work of art as in creating a theatrical murder scene for laughs instead of just grabbing Filomena's valuables and beating it.
Ok then, add the bra to the list the "stager" could have easily stuffed into a plastic bag & later burned.
 

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