Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[smartcooky]

Meant to share this one earlier, about a surprising ruling in the Ninth Circuit, from a trans activist POV:

This ruling sets a devastating precedent for transgender rights. Issued by a majority Democratic-appointed panel in the 9th Circuit, it marks the first significant decision in which Democratic-appointed judges have ruled against transgender protections. By prioritizing cisgender discomfort over the tangible harm faced by transgender people, the court has effectively sanctioned a legal framework in which transgender individuals can be forced to live as their assigned sex at birth.​

9th Circuit Upholds Bathroom Ban, Says Trans Students Violate Cis People's Privacy

The ruling, the first of its kind, asserts that the rights of cisgender people to not have a transgender person in the same bathroom are more important than the equal protection of trans students.

www.erininthemorning.com

People unfamiliar with US Federal court system might not understand just how big this is. The Ninth Circuit Court covers a lot of states, territories and regions.... Alaska, Arizona, the Central, Eastern, Northern and Southern Districts of California, Guam, Hawaii, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Northern Mariana Islands, Oregon and the Eastern and Western Districts of Washington State. That measn this law applies in all of them, so the only way to reverse the decisions is for the 9th to reverse itself, or SCOTUS to overturn.

The tide against the insanity of gender ideology contuinues to rush out.

 

[Rolfe]

Surely you mean to use the past tense here? Starmer's spokesman seemed quite clear that he no longer believes transwomen are women. It's striking that he waited a few days before saying anything. It indicates that this pivot is permanent.

Essentially. He's a very new convert, so let's see how it proceeds. I agree that the couple of days stunned silence probably means he has faced up to the fact that he doesn't really have any other option.

 

[theprestige]

Your diminutive attitude is. Gender reassignment surgery is not just cutting a penis off.

No, my attitude is also not the issue.

The issue is that no amount of surgery or hormone treatment can change someone's biological sex.

She's also gay, which may have something to do with her non-conforming to regressive stereotypes of womanhood.

Doesn't matter why she doesn't make as much effort to conform as Dylan does. What matters is that by your rubric, her relative lack of effort makes her less of a woman than Mulvaney.

This whole "we identify women by what they wear" thing is kind of sexist and weird. Is that really your position? Someone wears a dress, they get to caucus with the women in matters of sex segregation?

 

[Rolfe]

Actually, it started when I asked him how anyone could tell whether a man still had his male genitalia, and the answer seemed to be that if he didn't he'd be wearing women's clothes. I think my brain just fried.

 

[d4m10n]

How many times do I have to scream this one?

Every time you affirm that "segregation of the rooms is based on gender identity" you have an obligation to deal with the alarm it understandably causes.

(Seriously, though, that affirmation isn't true except where the courts have ruled that it is, and even the Ninth Circuit is in retreat.)

If Andy does not take it upon himself to enter the one, he has no problem.

The same could be said of Andy's sibling, whose desire to enter the ladies' is also based on maximizing their own comfort.

 

[Mycroft]

Actually, it started when I asked him how anyone could tell whether a man still had his male genitalia, and the answer seemed to be that if he didn't he'd be wearing women's clothes. I think my brain just fried.

Who said that?

 

[Mycroft]

No, my attitude is also not the issue.

I disagree. I am purposefully highlighting your dismissive attitude to draw attention to it. That you don't think it's an issue is obvious, but I think it is.

The issue is that no amount of surgery or hormone treatment can change someone's biological sex.

Technology keeps getting better though, right?

Doesn't matter why she doesn't make as much effort to conform as Dylan does. What matters is that by your rubric, her relative lack of effort makes her less of a woman than Mulvaney.

Maybe in your mind I've created a whole scale where gender can be measured on a scale of one to one-thousand?

I don't have to agree with your claims of what goes on in my mind, but whatever.

This whole "we identify women by what they wear" thing is kind of sexist and weird. Is that really your position? Someone wears a dress, they get to caucus with the women in matters of sex segregation?

Yes, it's my position that gender norms exist. I don't think that's controversial.

Is this going to be like clothing, where you deny that men's/woman's clothing exist?

 

[Rolfe]

Who said that?

If you would like to clarify what you said here, I'm all ears.

 

[Rolfe]

 

[Mycroft]

If you would like to clarify what you said here, I'm all ears.

View attachment 60306

Oh, I see the misunderstanding.

When I said "similar clothing" I was quoting you. When you said "similar clothing" you meant "woman's clothing", is what I was saying.

 

[Thermal]

Every time you affirm that "segregation of the rooms is based on gender identity" you have an obligation to deal with the alarm it understandably causes.

Agreed. At no point have I asserted that a given person's presentation would not be cause for alarm among the occupants, rightly or wrongly. I'm alarmed at kind of... well, everything. No one is legally obligated to treat Danielle or Andy any particular way. They can fit in or not at their discretion.

(Seriously, though, that affirmation isn't true except where the courts have ruled that it is, and even the Ninth Circuit is in retreat.)

I'm no lawyer, but the 9th's decision is based on some vague trauma that a transperson's presence may inflict on Idaho students being seen naked by the other sex. Children. I'm not sure how that extrapolates to adults in a public rest room, if it does at all. A school locker room might be seen as a place where nudity could be reasonably expected, not so much for taking a pee in an enclosed stall at Home Depot.

The same could be said of Andy's sibling, whose desire to enter the ladies' is also based on maximizing their own comfort.

Sure, it's all about comfort, intersecting with discrimination (white folks were uncomfortable sharing restrooms with black folk).

Whose comfort prevails is still very much up.in the air. The Cali Circuit has no teeth out my way, but I do expect other courts to +/- follow suit.

 

[Rolfe]

Oh, I see the misunderstanding.

When I said "similar clothing" I was quoting you. When you said "similar clothing" you meant "woman's clothing", is what I was saying.

I didn't mean that at all. Stop making assumptions. I meant that a man who has had his cock and balls removed looks just the same as any other man. I added the "similar clothes" thing, I thought, for clarity - obviously men dressed very differently look different.

So how is a woman supposed to know whether any given man in the women's bathroom has had genital surgery or not?

 

[Ziggurat]

Technology keeps getting better though, right?

Not THAT fast. Who knows what will happen in 1000 years, but in our lifetimes, there will not be any true sex change operations for humans. We are not attempting that. We don’t even have any idea how to attempt that.

Yes, it's my position that gender norms exist. I don't think that's controversial.

That they exist isn’t. That we should base public policy decisions on them, yeah, that’s a bit controversial.

 

[Ziggurat]

I'm no lawyer, but the 9th's decision is based on some vague trauma that a transperson's presence may inflict on Idaho students being seen naked by the other sex. Children. I'm not sure how that extrapolates to adults in a public rest room, if it does at all.

I don’t think I have ever encountered an adult-only public restroom, so it seems kind of obvious how it might extrapolate.

 

[Rolfe]

I keep asking how we can tell which man is allowed in the women's bathroom and which isn't, if we have a rule that says some are allowed in but others aren't. I mean, practically speaking. We can't tell if they've had their dangly bits cut off. We can't tell if they have a special piece of paper (which we're not allowed to ask for.) We can't tell if they have special gendery feels in their heads.

What criteria should be allowed for entry, that would give women the possibility of knowing who was allowed and who wasn't, and so asking the interlopers to please get their arses out of here?

(Whoopee, this question is no longer relevant to my interests.)

 

[Rolfe]

Maybe where you live, where "assault by penetration" has been wrapped up into the definition of rape. Something I don't approve of at all, but that's by the way.

In the country where that incident actually happened, rape is defined in law as the non-consensual penetration of the vagina, mouth or anus by a penis. The only way a woman can be convicted of rape is where she has acted as an accessory to a man, for example holding the victim down.

If there is no man present, there can be no rape.

I just remembered another wrinkle to this one. A different case. A man was charged with rape, and the evidence was overwhelming (can't remember the details.) He announced that he was trans, not quite sure at what stage of the proceedings. The defence he instructed his barrister to mount was that he was female and since females can't commit rape under English law, he stood to be acquitted.

It didn't work, but he tried it.

 

[Mycroft]

So how is a woman supposed to know whether any given man in the women's bathroom has had genital surgery or not?

I don't know. Maybe you can't.

If you can't tell, does it matter?

I have an idea, you can ask the people standing guard at the door.

 

[theprestige]

I don't know. Maybe you can't.

If you can't tell, does it matter?

Not really, but then it never mattered, except to you. Male is male. Sex segregation doesn't care about cosmetic surgery.

 

[Mycroft]

Not really, but then it never mattered, except to you. Male is male. Sex segregation doesn't care about cosmetic surgery.

Again, you imagine things happening in my head.

When did I say I care if a person had surgery or not?

 

[Mycroft]

That they exist isn’t. That we should base public policy decisions on them, yeah, that’s a bit controversial.

If we assume only cis-women are allowed in the woman's room and cis-men are allowed in the men's room, how would we determine who is who without gender norms?