Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[varwoche]

I listen to women too. The women I listen to aren't bothered by transwomen in the woman's room.

What makes the women you listen to right and the women I listen to wrong?

Nothing personal, but I know that the women I listen to actually exist, and I know the terms of the discussions.

There's a small population of women we can poll without relying on unverifiable personal anecdotes: the women on this forum.

 

[Ziggurat]

I answered your question. I said, "I don't know".

Exactly. You don't actually know how to handle the transgender access issue. So why do you think you're in a position to lecture people who want to keep him out?

You never answered mine. Should all trans-people be assumed to be just as wicked as Bryson?

No more than ordinary men should be assumed to be just as wicked as Bryson. They don't all need to be in order to justify sex segregation.

 

[Ziggurat]

That's probably going to be the dumbest thing I see today. Any fool knows anyone can rape anyone else, and gender identity has nothing to do with it.

The funny thing is, you think this is an argument in your favor, when it's actually an argument against you. Yes, gender identity has nothing to do with it. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT. Gender identity isn't sufficient to justify transcending sex segregation, precisely because gender identity isn't what matters.

 

[d4m10n]

Meant to share this one earlier, about a surprising ruling in the Ninth Circuit, from a trans activist POV:

This ruling sets a devastating precedent for transgender rights. Issued by a majority Democratic-appointed panel in the 9th Circuit, it marks the first significant decision in which Democratic-appointed judges have ruled against transgender protections. By prioritizing cisgender discomfort over the tangible harm faced by transgender people, the court has effectively sanctioned a legal framework in which transgender individuals can be forced to live as their assigned sex at birth.​

9th Circuit Upholds Bathroom Ban, Says Trans Students Violate Cis People's Privacy

The ruling, the first of its kind, asserts that the rights of cisgender people to not have a transgender person in the same bathroom are more important than the equal protection of trans students.

www.erininthemorning.com

 

[Ziggurat]

They only have the 'right' if they selfID as women, which basically means the other 99.5% would have to lie.

Why is it a lie? According to self ID, if I say I'm a woman, then I'm a woman. The declaration made it so. There is no such thing as lying about that. For it to be a lie, you would need some sort of test that didn't rely on my testimony that could determine my gender. And self ID does not allow for any other test. Lying about that is literally impossible.

 

[Elaedith]

If you delay puberty until adulthood you can change your mind with few consequences. If you force a person to go through puberty when they prefer to transition, you pretty much guarantee a less than optimal result.

If you delay puberty until adulthood you are preventing the process that is associated with the resolution of gender dysphoria in the majority of cases. In fact, even the view that gender identity is innate and is due to the influence of pre-natal sex steroid hormones is consistent with this, as there is extensive sex-steroid restructuring of the brain at puberty, and for all we know this may be a factor in resolution of dysphoria.

All the available data evidence suggest that social and medical transitioning consolidate cross-sex identity or prevent resolution on gender dysphoria.

Cite?



I call BS. I don't think this is true.

Thus further confirming that you have done no research on the topic at all.

You could start by reading this paper pointing fact-checking the AAP policy statement on gender-affirming care which cites this evidence, and this more recent letter fact-checking the AAP's re-affirmation of their policy. Note that this was already discussed in detail many times in this thread and the Cass review in the UK has confirmed what we had already discussed about the lack of evidence for AAP, Endocrine Society and WPATH guidelines.

And the largest study to date, published since then.

Every independent systematic evidence review has found the same weak evidence base for gender affirmation in minors and every country that has conducted an independent review has scaled back the practice. Why do you think that is?

 

[Mycroft]

Here you go: https://daily.jstor.org/in-the-ladies-loo/

ETA — Excerpt from Baldwin article as image.

Interesting article. Some parts I wonder if you read:

“At various points in US history, the absence of toilet facilities has signaled to lacks, to women, to workers, to people with disabilities, to transgender people, and to homeless people that they are outsiders to the body politic and that there is no room for them in public space,” writes the feminist scholar Judith Plaskow. If these bathrooms are supposedly for the public, then by virtue of excluding certain people, the message is that their needs are not for consideration.

<snip>

Now, the current campaigns of exclusion seek to bar transgender women from accessing the ladies’ room.

I agree with the author who states it's about who has access to public spaces.

 

[Mycroft]

I've yet to see you produce a reasoned argument here beyond "I believe transwomen are women".

I guess that makes you the winner.

 

[Ziggurat]

If you delay puberty until adulthood you can change your mind with few consequences.

You cannot delay puberty until adulthood. If you delay puberty that long, it doesn't happen. You cannot go through puberty at 18.

Claims that puberty blockers used to treat gender dysphoria are reversible are not backed up by any actual science. The most commonly cited evidence for this claim is that children treated with puberty blockers for precocious puberty have normal fertility when they grow up, but treatment for precocious puberty is not the same as treatment for gender dysphoria. There are NO studies showing that puberty blockers used to treat gender dysphoria are reversible. Almost all the studies on the topic focus on mental health outcomes, not medical outcomes, and in many of those studies, not a single participant halted their use without going on to cross-sex hormone treatment. So in most of these studies, there is no cohort of children who stopped taking blockers to even examine.

You really don't know what you're talking about, on pretty much any of these issues.

 

[Mycroft]

I'm not American, so your analogies with reference to US racist culture are entirely lost on me.

I know quite a few trans people. Lets stick with the transwomen for now though. I don't think I ever said I had "such great sympathy for them". This discussion needs a little nuance, which you seem to find rather difficult.

Let's take the transwomen I'm on friendly terms with. They don't say or do anything to upset me. In private houses the question of who uses which toilet doesn't even arise. I get on fine with them. But you know, it's possible to be on friendly terms with someone and still think they're a complete weirdo in at least part of their life. That Ashley, or Lesley, or whoever, chooses to dress up in womanface, is part of his personality that I tolerate. It doesn't really make any difference. (I admit that I "supported" Ashley in the past, soon after his transition, like a good little handmaiden, telling him a pack of lies about the softness of his skin and the shape of his torso, because I thought the right thing to do was to bolster his self-esteem. I might make a different choice about that now.) It's part of who they are and I accept that.

On the other hand there are the transwomen I know who I am most certainly not on friendly terms with. They are obnoxious, entitled, bullying creeps. I avoid them, and in particular I make damn sure they're nowhere near if I'm going to the toilet in a venue where they are also attending.

So these are, roughly speaking, the sort of transwomen I know. I don't know any of these ultra-feminine, frightened, vulnerable flowers that some people talk about. I know obvious men who try (more or less unsuccessfully) to present a feminine appearance. Some of them are perfectly OK people otherwise, and some of them are not, but all of them are perfectly capable of standing up for themselves. As a group they are far closer to the people we saw making a spectacle of themselved in Parliament Square than to the more-or-less mythical Hayley Cropper type.

I entirely support the provision of some sort of third space for these people to pee in, if they really can't bring themselves to use the toilets appropriate to their actual sex. Or tacit permission to use the disabled loo, in a small venue. I also entirely support them as regards freedom from discrimination in employment, housing and all other sex-neutral aspects of life. I also support them to be entitled to use the male facilities free from harrassment. And that applies to both my friends and the transwomen I can't stand.

I do not support them to transgress women's boundaries, and never will.

I bet Ashley, or Lesley, or whoever, appreciates your tolerance when they dress up in womanface. I hope they never encounter obnoxious, entitled, bullying creeps.

 

[Thermal]

Why is it a lie? According to self ID, if I say I'm a woman, then I'm a woman. The declaration made it so. There is no such thing as lying about that. For it to be a lie, you would need some sort of test that didn't rely on my testimony that could determine my gender. And self ID does not allow for any other test. Lying about that is literally impossible.

Watch how easy it is:

Bob, a cis male, decides he wants to exploit the self ID loophole and enter a women's restroom, in search of vulnerable prey.

He is confronted while doing so, and despite not identifying as a woman, he claims to in order to avoid penalty. He deliberately misrepresented himself with the intent to maliciously deceive. He lied, by any definition.

Where did you bog down in the above?

 

[Mycroft]

No amount of complicated plastic surgery will make a male female. That's just not how biological sex works.

Is gender reassignment surgery more complicated that chopping a penis off? Yes or no?

By your rubric, Dylan Mulvaney is more of a woman than Tig Notaro.

I'm not aware of any rubric I put forth that comes to that conclusion, but whatever.

 

[Mycroft]

I'm sitting here in jeans, t-shirt and a hoodie. It's my normal dress. The jeans are women's because I need that for fit. The t-shirt and hoodie aren't anything in particular. What do you even mean by "women's clothing"?

I can't believe you ask what I mean by "women's clothing" in the very same paragraph where you describe your jeans as women's clothing.

My wife likes to wear some of my older t-shirts, but when she buys t-shirts of her own she buys woman's t-shirts. As you say, they are cut differently, but my old ones fit too.

Yeah, as far as I know hoodies are unisex, but the existence of unisex clothing doesn't disprove the existence of men's/woman's clothing.

Please stop the gaslighting.

 

[d4m10n]

Interesting article.

Did you catch the bit about a "safe space for all women" just before your excerpt?

One must wonder who that safe space is intended to exclude, if it includes "all women" by design.

 

[Agatha]

Are you religious?

Why are you personalising this? I'm not sure what my religious beliefs or lack of them has to do with the fact that Muslim and Jewish women are forbidden by their religion to be unclothed in spaces where males are present, and therefore self-ID is directly damaging their ability to take part in public life. I was not aware that I had to be religious to point out the effects that allowing trans-identifying males into female single-sex spaces has on Muslim or Jewish women; I must have missed that memo.

 

[Mycroft]

You cannot delay puberty until adulthood. If you delay puberty that long, it doesn't happen. You cannot go through puberty at 18.

Cite please.

Claims that puberty blockers used to treat gender dysphoria are reversible are not backed up by any actual science. The most commonly cited evidence for this claim is that children treated with puberty blockers for precocious puberty have normal fertility when they grow up, but treatment for precocious puberty is not the same as treatment for gender dysphoria. There are NO studies showing that puberty blockers used to treat gender dysphoria are reversible. Almost all the studies on the topic focus on mental health outcomes, not medical outcomes, and in many of those studies, not a single participant halted their use without going on to cross-sex hormone treatment. So in most of these studies, there is no cohort of children who stopped taking blockers to even examine.

The issue is fraught with politics, but this is what the Mayo Clinic says.

Puberty blockers for transgender and gender-diverse youth

Understand how puberty blockers work to suppress puberty. Learn about their benefits, side effects and long-term effects.

www.mayoclinic.org

Are the changes permanent?
GnRH analogues don't cause permanent physical changes. Instead, they pause puberty. That offers a chance to explore gender identity. It also gives youth and their families time to plan for the psychological, medical, developmental, social and legal issues that may lie ahead..

When a person stops taking GnRH analogues, puberty starts.

My inclination is to go with the Mayo Clinic over you.

You really don't know what you're talking about, on pretty much any of these issues.

¯\_(ツ)_/

I think I know at least as much as you do, but I also know we should avoid personalizing the debate. The rule is attack the argument, not the arguer.

 

[Mycroft]

Did you catch the bit about a "safe space for all women" just before your excerpt?

One must wonder who that safe space is intended to exclude, if it includes "all women" by design.

I'm pretty sure the author meant to include transwomen as part of "all women".

Contextual cues, they often provide the answer.

 

[Mycroft]

Why are you personalising this? I'm not sure what my religious beliefs or lack of them has to do with the fact that Muslim and Jewish women are forbidden by their religion to be unclothed in spaces where males are present, and therefore self-ID is directly damaging their ability to take part in public life. I was not aware that I had to be religious to point out the effects that allowing trans-identifying males into female single-sex spaces has on Muslim or Jewish women; I must have missed that memo.

I asked because you seem to be giving a lot of weight to someone else's religious beliefs.

Don't share if you don't feel comfortable, but you're the one who brought religion into it.

 

[Hercules56]

If you delay puberty until adulthood you can change your mind with few consequences. If you force a person to go through puberty when they prefer to transition, you pretty much guarantee a less than optimal result....

Oh really? If you use puberty blockers till age 20 and then stop them, puberty will activate?

Id love to see proof of this.

 

[Mashuna]

Watch how easy it is:

Bob, a cis male, decides he wants to exploit the self ID loophole and enter a women's restroom, in search of vulnerable prey.

He is confronted while doing so, and despite not identifying as a woman, he claims to in order to avoid penalty. He deliberately misrepresented himself with the intent to maliciously deceive. He lied, by any definition.

Where did you bog down in the above?

In this bit, '...despite not identifying as a woman, he claims to...'

The 'claiming to' is literally identifying as a woman. It may not last, it may not be genuine, but that claim is self-id. The only definition of what a woman is, under self-id, is that claim.