Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Aber]

You sure about that? Google says no they don't, but I haven't been in one in years.

Every one I've been in recently does.

What Google tells me:

AI Overview
Learn more

Yes, McDonald's typically uses traditional male/female restroom signs. While some locations may use gender-neutral signs, the standard signage for restrooms is usually male and female icons or symbols.

Here's why:

• Traditional Restroom Signage:
  McDonald's, like most businesses, generally adheres to the established practice of using male and female icons for restroom doors.
• Gender-Neutral Options:
  Some locations, particularly in more progressive areas or those with a focus on inclusivity, may choose to use gender-neutral restroom signs.
• Corporate Policy:
  While there's no universal corporate policy dictating restroom signage, McDonald's often allows individual franchisees or locations to determine their signage based on local preferences and regulations.
• Examples:
  Some McDonald's locations have been observed using gender-neutral restroom signs, while others still use the traditional male/female icons.

 

[Rolfe]

I'm like 99.9% confident EC wants to keep the cismen out too.

Quite! That is actually the central point of the SC judgement, which could almost be summarised as "transwomen are men". They found that there was no justification for considering some males to be part of the category "women". It may be that the TRAs' insistence on there being absolutely no hoops that have to be jumped through for a man to be considered as a transwoman has helped here. The judges specifically noted this and said that since there was no requirement for transwomen to dress or present in any way differently from other men, it was pretty much ludicrous to rule that they should be shifted to the category of "women".

Accordingly, if a facility is lawfully designated as single-sex, then keeping males out inevitably means keeping out those males who choose to call themselves transwomen. If you let the transwomen in, then there is no justification for keeping any man out.

 

[Rolfe]

Right now trans-people already use the bathroom that creates the littlest fuss.

They are using whichever bathroom pleases them more. They care absolutely nothing for the opinions of the other users, their sole desire is to be in the place that "validates" them as the sex they wish they were. That women in particular may choose to say nothing but simply get the hell out as fast as they can doesn't mean this is problem-free. I have no idea who Danny Trejo is, but I suspect that getting the hell out fast is likely to be the response to him too.

 

[Rolfe]

On one hand you claim to support trans-people, to personally know some, to have such great sympathy for them...

Then you go and say crap like this.

My next door neighbor claims not to be racist, but the first thing he tells you is he doesn't like Rap music, "the blacks" control local politics, and he doesn't think it's fair how black people can use the N-word but he can't.

I'm not American, so your analogies with reference to US racist culture are entirely lost on me.

I know quite a few trans people. Lets stick with the transwomen for now though. I don't think I ever said I had "such great sympathy for them". This discussion needs a little nuance, which you seem to find rather difficult.

Let's take the transwomen I'm on friendly terms with. They don't say or do anything to upset me. In private houses the question of who uses which toilet doesn't even arise. I get on fine with them. But you know, it's possible to be on friendly terms with someone and still think they're a complete weirdo in at least part of their life. That Ashley, or Lesley, or whoever, chooses to dress up in womanface, is part of his personality that I tolerate. It doesn't really make any difference. (I admit that I "supported" Ashley in the past, soon after his transition, like a good little handmaiden, telling him a pack of lies about the softness of his skin and the shape of his torso, because I thought the right thing to do was to bolster his self-esteem. I might make a different choice about that now.) It's part of who they are and I accept that.

On the other hand there are the transwomen I know who I am most certainly not on friendly terms with. They are obnoxious, entitled, bullying creeps. I avoid them, and in particular I make damn sure they're nowhere near if I'm going to the toilet in a venue where they are also attending.

So these are, roughly speaking, the sort of transwomen I know. I don't know any of these ultra-feminine, frightened, vulnerable flowers that some people talk about. I know obvious men who try (more or less unsuccessfully) to present a feminine appearance. Some of them are perfectly OK people otherwise, and some of them are not, but all of them are perfectly capable of standing up for themselves. As a group they are far closer to the people we saw making a spectacle of themselved in Parliament Square than to the more-or-less mythical Hayley Cropper type.

I entirely support the provision of some sort of third space for these people to pee in, if they really can't bring themselves to use the toilets appropriate to their actual sex. Or tacit permission to use the disabled loo, in a small venue. I also entirely support them as regards freedom from discrimination in employment, housing and all other sex-neutral aspects of life. I also support them to be entitled to use the male facilities free from harrassment. And that applies to both my friends and the transwomen I can't stand.

I do not support them to transgress women's boundaries, and never will.

 

[Rolfe]

When you say "some men" you mean transwomen.

Also, when you say "women" you don't mean all women.

Mycroft, transwomen are "some men". You can spend all day contradicting posters who point out this commonplace truism, but you're not changing anyone's mind.

Women are not a homogeneous group. But your ability to winkle out a few handmaidens in a particularly woke part of Murica doesn't change diddly-squat.

 

[Ziggurat]

I see you still have not grasped the fact that a central basis of modern transactivism is that one does not need to transition at all, in any way whatsoever, in order to be trans.

I see this repeated again and again, and I don't see any reason to adopt it as my own opinion.

As I've said more than once, what transactivists do and say is a separate issue from trans-rights itself.

Sure. Except that what they do and say is often adopted by governments. For example, in California, you get to pick the gender listed on your driver's license. If you are male, you can be listed as female, with zero requirement for any sort of transition. No surgery, no hormone treatment, no requirement on appearance, no requirement of a doctor or therapist's confirmation, nothing. Say you're a woman, and California agrees. So noting that actual rights and activists demands can be different is hardly the escape hatch you seem to think, when often they aren't different.

 

[Hercules56]

When you say "some men" you mean transwomen.

Also, when you say "women" you don't mean all women.

Since transwomen are not biological women, you are incorrect.

When we say "women", we mean biological women. YOU mean anyone who thinks they want to be called a woman, regardless of biology.

 

[Hercules56]

Mycroft, transwomen are "some men". You can spend all day contradicting posters who point out this commonplace truism, but you're not changing anyone's mind.

Women are not a homogeneous group. But your ability to winkle out a few handmaidens in a particularly woke part of Murica doesn't change diddly-squat.

No, there are women and then there are transwomen. At least when science is concerned.

YOUR definition of women is a temporary social construct.

 

[Thermal]

Every one I've been in recently does.

I'm surprised it hasn't been held up as front page news on the anti-trans twitter pages then. So surprised that I don't quite believe it. I'll bite the bullet and stop in the next one I see. Wanna bet the signs don't say Male/Female, and I'll provide pics?

What Google tells me:

Yes. I saw that too. It's why we don't rely on AI for answers; it misunderstands what we are asking.

Did you look for images of these signs? They say men/women, and sometimes men/ladies, not male/female. There was one claimed image from Australia that says "Female Toilet Ambulant" but that is from some Flickr page, no indication that it was even from a McDonalds.

 

[theprestige]

Is this an accurate description of gender reassignment surgery? Or is it more complicated than that?

No amount of complicated plastic surgery will make a male female. That's just not how biological sex works.

Commitment to the transition.

Danny Trejo in lipstick isn't very committed. Dylan Mulvaney is.

By your rubric, Dylan Mulvaney is more of a woman than Tig Notaro.

Which, honestly, is fine by me. I fully embrace the concept of gender as a social construct. I'm all for gender fluidity. I think gender queering is a fine pastime and more of us should do more of it. If Danny Trejo wants to put on lipstick and say, "I'm a woman", great! He'll get no argument from me. Just so long as we all agree that he's still male, and he still has to caucus with the males in matters of sex segregation.

 

[Rolfe]

I'm surprised it hasn't been held up as front page news on the anti-trans twitter pages then. So surprised that I don't quite believe it. I'll bite the bullet and stop in the next one I see. Wanna bet the signs don't say Male/Female, and I'll provide pics?

Yes. I saw that too. It's why we don't rely on AI for answers; it misunderstands what we are asking.

Did you look for images of these signs? They say men/women, and sometimes men/ladies, not male/female. There was one claimed image from Australia that says "Female Toilet Ambulant" but that is from some Flickr page, no indication that it was even from a McDonalds.

It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if it's "F" and "M" or some sort of barely-comprehensible pictogram, the intent and the interpretation is the same in all cases.

 

[Rolfe]

No, there are women and then there are transwomen. At least when science is concerned.

YOUR definition of women is a temporary social construct.

Sorry, what? My definition of woman is adult female human beings. Or if you want to get technical, adult human beings with a reproductive tract that has developed along the Müllerian pathway. Or even more technical, adult human beings who have (typically) no functional SRY gene, or (rarely) no functioning androgen receptors.

Nothing to do with social constructs.

 

[Thermal]

Do they, though?

How many have been diagnosed with anything that might be considered a real problem?

How many people have actually been prescribed social transition or overriding sex segregation as good medicine for treating the problem they've been diagnosed with?

Are you making an appeal to emotion, here? Or are you making an appeal to science and medicine?

None of the above. I'm acknowledging that transpeople have self evident problems, of which this entire ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ thread is good evidence of.

Some percentage will have gender dysphoria or some other diagnosed medical condition (no, I haven't forgotten that you use the term incorrectly). Some won't. They still have unique problems with active and ongoing discrimination, and outright malice and hatred. Your false dichotomy doesn't apply.

 

[Thermal]

It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if it's "F" and "M" or some sort of barely-comprehensible pictogram, the intent and the interpretation is the same in all cases.

You are not understanding what we were talking about. Or didn't read it, and are knee jerking to keywords. Probably the latter.

 

[Thermal]

A subset of "men" are still "men". That makes them biologically male

Serious question: do you really think the trans rights debate is about skeletons found by future archeologists?

I'm not in the slightest bit concerned about archeological forensic identification. I'm concerned about the living, breathing people who shouldn't be discriminated against by me, you, or the rest of the anti-trans brigade.

Relying on what a hypothetical archeologist would find centuries from now to justify your treatment of them now is beyond irrelevant.

 

[theprestige]

No, they are asking to be treated just like other women

What does it mean to be treated like a woman? Are we talking about things like expecting them to keep house, make sandwiches, and stay out of the boardroom? Or are we talking about - dun dun dunnn! - treating them like females?

 

[theprestige]

None of the above. I'm acknowledging that transpeople have self evident problems, of which this entire ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ thread is good evidence of.

So? Incels have problems, too. Nobody says we should cater to their foibles out of pity for how they feel.

Some percentage will have gender dysphoria or some other diagnosed medical condition (no, I haven't forgotten that you use the term incorrectly). Some won't. They still have unique problems with active and ongoing discrimination, and outright malice and hatred. Your false dichotomy doesn't apply.

What part of that entitles them to override sex segregation?

 

[Thermal]

What does it mean to be treated like a woman? Are we talking about things like expecting them to keep house, make sandwiches, and stay out of the boardroom? Or are we talking about - dun dun dunnn! - treating them like females?

In this context, just being allowed to pee where it feels right.

You can't keep relying on equivocating between female and woman as long as our laws are muddy on it. In my state, woman is broadly interpreted as a gender expression (most states agree). That's the beginning of any meaningful resolution: clear up the definitions.

 

[Thermal]

What part of that entitles them to override sex segregation?

How many times do I have to directly answer that same question to you, asking every time if you are satisfied with the response, only to have you ignore it and reask it a page later, claiming no one has answered it in a decade?

 

[d4m10n]

They are using whichever bathroom pleases them more. They care absolutely nothing for the opinions of the other users, their sole desire is to be in the place that "validates" them as the sex they wish they were.

I don't believe that is as broadly true as you believe it is; it's not particularly difficult to find a counterexample, that is, someone worried about being judged by other bathroom patrons. It seems to me that you have a tendency to paint every trans woman as if they are the most strident activist from that silly protest the other day.