d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
I don't suppose you might be willing to clarify what you think the least bad solution is for the five groups mentioned at #6,005?
Transwomen are not Women - Part 15
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smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Actually, after the Scottish parliament passed the hate speech laws criminalizing opinions, JKR dared them to have the Police come and arrest her for what she said. IIRC, what she said was...
The word "transphobic" as used by TRA's does not mean an irrational fear or dislike of trans people. It means refusing to use gender identity ideology's jargon, refusing to parrot its slogans, refusing to accept that sex doesn't matter when it comes to sport and single-sex spaces, refusing to believe a bearded heterosexual man becomes a lesbian when he declares himself one, and refusing to believe an abusive, misogynistic male is a woman because he likes to wear mini-dresses and pout in selfies. Like every other gender critical person I know, I believe everyone should be free to express themselves however they wish, dress however they please, call themselves whatever they want, sleep with any consenting adult who wishes to sleep with them, and that trans-identified people should have the same protections regarding employment, housing, freedom of speech and personal safety every other citizen is entitled to.
But this isn't nearly enough for the dominant strain of trans activism, which asserts that unless freedom of speech is removed from dissenters, unless trans-identified men are permitted to strip away women's rights, with particular reference to single sex spaces like rape crisis centres, prison cells, hospital wards, changing rooms and public bathrooms, until we all bow down to their neo-religion, accept their pseudo-scientific claims and embrace their circular reasoning, trans people are more oppressed, and more at risk, than any other group in society.
This is nonsense. 99.9% of the world knows it's nonsense. The emperor is naked. He might be wearing lipstick, but his balls are swinging in plain sight.
Nothing happened. Crickets! Either the Scottish politicians were too scared of the ◊◊◊◊-storm that would have descended upon them, or what she said was not discriminatory. In fact, NOTHING JKR has said on the subject is discrimination - it is nothing more than fact and reality-based opinion.
Thermal
August Member
The first four groupings require some kind of paper bag test, which I think is a no-go from the jump. The last group I think don't even cares, or some want a seperate room, which can get infinite with the breakdowns and become impossible.
Accommodating everyone fairly would require the Portland school setup. In practicality, the M/F and not getting too weird about the rare non-conformer seems most workable. Strict bio segregation seems to be the most guaranteed to piss off the maximum amount of people.
Rolfe
Adult human female
A lot of things that "seems" to you aren't even close to the reality of the world outside your bubble.
Thermal
August Member
Of course it does. Do you have s Twitter post from some random bigot to support that?
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
First off, I didn't say advocate groups, I said advocates. Second, dude - it's verifiable.
Okay, this is just plain ignorance on your part. Ask your spouse what all is involved in peeing or changing a pad when they're wearing pantyhose and a skirt, or gods forbid a single-piece jumpsuit. Perhaps not 100% completely stripped down - but we're naked from the waist down. Don't play games.
Uh huh. Okay, fine. Some males are super special males with special feels that need protecting from other males, so ◊◊◊◊ females, those bitches don't matter they should know their place and just let the special males do whatever the ◊◊◊◊ they want. They're only females after all, who gives a ◊◊◊◊ if they get raped and sexually assaulted and ogled and verbally harassed in a sexual way at astonishing rates? They ought to have known better than to show their ankles, after all, amirite?
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
They're NOT women! They're males Thermal. Females don't "identify as women", we simply ARE. I don't "identify as short", I AM OBJECTIVELY 5'2"! I don't "identify as 50", that's my objective chronological age.
Transwomen are NOT women. They're asking that all females pretend that we don't know they're males, that we ignore reality in deference to their desires.
JFC. I get that they have problems, and I would love to have a good solution to their problems... but insisting that females have to relinquish our spaces and put ourselves at a disadvantage, increase our risk, and reduce our ability to participate in society so that these males can feel better about themselves is irrational and borders on misogynistic.
If you want to do something to really help them, how about you start campaigning to other males to make them feel welcome in male spaces? How about that?
Otherwise, this ends up feeling a whole lot like males have decided that some males aren't male enough to be given entry into the male club... and therefore they should go into the heap of non-males where you place the females.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Ahem...
And I'll add - will you support us getting that clarity and defining that these spaces are sex-segregated?
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
You do not think (gender non-conforming) people can actually tell whether they are generally perceived as male or female?
One easy test might be to use both bathrooms and see which one leads to expressions of surprise.
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Thermal
August Member
Honestly, yes, and after all these posts you should know that. I'm chivalrous by nature. But chivalry is sexist and discriminatory, whether we like to admit it or not, so *legally* its almost a non-starter for an argument. I'm looking for a solution within the four corners of what we can do without reverting to 1940s sexist attitudes.
Thermal
August Member
I don't think they care, pretty much definitionally, and they certainly wouldn't defer to what they didn't care about as the standard.
Do you think they might automatically feel more comfortable around females, who tend to be less harsh and intimidating as a group than males? I kinda do.
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
Why not, though? I've already gone through the thought experiment about what I would do if I woke up looking just like my sister, and the obvious ethical answer is to use the ladies room to avoid causing discomfort to the people in the other room, instead of using the room that I'd prefer so as maximize my own personal comfort. Given this, why should I hold other people to a lower standard than I would hold myself?
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
I think part of feminism is to stop treating women as if they ought to be less harsh than males under similarly taxing circumstances.
Thermal
August Member
Very lofty and altruistic attitude, putting the comfort of others above your own. Funny thing though... the anti-trans contingent here doesn't share your spirit of goodwill. "◊◊◊◊ them" is what it boils down to, unabashedly.
Thermal
August Member
I am assured that is exactly the case though, by posters on this very thread.
Graham2001
Graduate Poster
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Rolfe
Adult human female
One issue for me is that the only example I know of the shy, nervous "transwoman" is a fictional one, inserted into a soap opera plot in the 1990s as a deliberate attempt to garner public sympathy for this persona. The male transwoman was played by a petite actress who was only 5' 3" tall. Of course she was read as female, because she was female. And the storyline was crafted to make the character as engaging, sympathetic and non-threatening as possible. It was absolutely pure propaganda.
The "transwomen" I know in real life do not resemble this character at all. They are all quite clearly male at first glance. They split about 50/50 between men who are not particularly narcissistic or aggressive and mostly just seem to want to get on with life, and the others. Two of this first group are partners and seem very happy together, and can be very funny. One is a very long-standing friend whom I knew before his transition. However, what would happen if someone asked them not to use the women's toilets I don't know. I have carefully avoided being in that position.
The other half of the split are classic aggressive, bullying transactivists. One has been seen this week tweeting that he'll leave the country if anyone tries to prevent him using women's toilets. (He's very tall, very large and very male. When I first googled "cotton ceiling" the top link was an article he had written criticising lesbians for not being sexually available to trans-identifying men.) Another was standing shoulder to shoulder with a mob screaming "◊◊◊◊ you" at women entering a conference to discuss male violence against women, apparently resenting the fact that the event was women-only. He has also vociferously petitioned politicians to provide children with puberty blockers more or less on demand, as being safe and reversible and life-saving, . He sometimes tries (unsuccessfully) to look like something out of Anne of Green Gables and sometimes he just looks like a tall, rather overweight bloke in normal male leisure clothes but with a stringy grey ponytail.
Maybe the sweet, harmless, nervous, frightened "transwoman" exists somewhere outside the script of Coronation Street. Or on the other hand, from my point of view, maybe there are some good actors out there. Who knows. But my own personal experience with trans-identifying men is far far more aligned to the baying mobs we saw peeing on statues and screaming for terfs to be killed than to the shy, frightened, marginalised victim we're being pity-shamed into sympathising with.
So really, pleas for me to put the comfort of these people above my own and above that of the many, many women I know who feel exactly as I do about the issue, are never very likely to fall on fertile soil.
The "transwomen" I know in real life do not resemble this character at all. They are all quite clearly male at first glance. They split about 50/50 between men who are not particularly narcissistic or aggressive and mostly just seem to want to get on with life, and the others. Two of this first group are partners and seem very happy together, and can be very funny. One is a very long-standing friend whom I knew before his transition. However, what would happen if someone asked them not to use the women's toilets I don't know. I have carefully avoided being in that position.
The other half of the split are classic aggressive, bullying transactivists. One has been seen this week tweeting that he'll leave the country if anyone tries to prevent him using women's toilets. (He's very tall, very large and very male. When I first googled "cotton ceiling" the top link was an article he had written criticising lesbians for not being sexually available to trans-identifying men.) Another was standing shoulder to shoulder with a mob screaming "◊◊◊◊ you" at women entering a conference to discuss male violence against women, apparently resenting the fact that the event was women-only. He has also vociferously petitioned politicians to provide children with puberty blockers more or less on demand, as being safe and reversible and life-saving, . He sometimes tries (unsuccessfully) to look like something out of Anne of Green Gables and sometimes he just looks like a tall, rather overweight bloke in normal male leisure clothes but with a stringy grey ponytail.
Maybe the sweet, harmless, nervous, frightened "transwoman" exists somewhere outside the script of Coronation Street. Or on the other hand, from my point of view, maybe there are some good actors out there. Who knows. But my own personal experience with trans-identifying men is far far more aligned to the baying mobs we saw peeing on statues and screaming for terfs to be killed than to the shy, frightened, marginalised victim we're being pity-shamed into sympathising with.
So really, pleas for me to put the comfort of these people above my own and above that of the many, many women I know who feel exactly as I do about the issue, are never very likely to fall on fertile soil.
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
Do you really think it's "lofty" to choose not being noticed over causing several other people alarm or discomfort?
I think they've done the maths and decided in favor of the needs of the many.
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I've had 13 replies to my posts, and there's been 5 pages in here since I left here last night. I don't have the time to reply to everyone, but this post is most relevant to what I've said:
You all assume I'm arguing for surgically transitioned transwomen to use women's facilities.
I'm just arguing for them to have safe spaces.
Rolfe comes up with a solution of sorts, the disabled space, which I can see some of them finding problematic.
I think it would work with a name change, like "differently-abled", perhaps, though that's just spitballing.
You all assume I'm arguing for surgically transitioned transwomen to use women's facilities.
I'm just arguing for them to have safe spaces.
Rolfe comes up with a solution of sorts, the disabled space, which I can see some of them finding problematic.
I think it would work with a name change, like "differently-abled", perhaps, though that's just spitballing.
Thermal
August Member
Is it justifiable alarm or discomfort though? That's really what this all is about.
The contingent here did the math? No. No, they didn't. They took a straw poll of what they wanted, discrimination against others be damned. There are no needs involved.