Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[smartcooky]

Transwomen who've had surgery know they've had surgery, and don't have the equipment to need male facilities,

And how does this apply to those transwomen who have undertaken no physical transitioning of any kind or have made no attempt to do so. or have merely Self ID'd by saying the magic words?

and many of them fear using male spaces because they dress as women.

Unfortunate, but please explain why any of this is a problem that women have to solve? Why should women have to sacrifice their safe spaces to accommodate a few delusional males?

 

[Orphia Nay]

And how does this apply to those transwomen who have undertaken no physical transitioning of any kind or have made no attempt to do so. or have merely Self ID'd by saying the magic words?

That's changing the subject again. I'm talking about transwomen who've had surgery.

Unfortunate, but please explain why any of this is a problem that women have to solve? Why should women have to sacrifice their safe spaces to accommodate a few delusional males?

Unfortunate/Delusional? Which is it? Do you have compassion for them or not?

 

[jimbob]

cut out the personalisation or this will be put in moderated status

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: jimbob

 

[smartcooky]

That's changing the subject again. I'm talking about transwomen who've had surgery.

Well, I'm not.

Fully transitioned transwomen are already protected under Section 7 of the UK Equality Act 2010, who incidentally are small percentage of transwomen. What we are talking about in this thread, are Self ID transwomen.

Unfortunate/Delusional? Which is it? Do you have compassion for them or not?

Its unfortunate that, if true, transwomen feel unsafe going into a men's restroom. I ask again, why must women be forced to own this problem? Its perfectly cromulent to have compassion for people (delusional or otherwise) without agreeing with their demands.

For example, I can I have compassion for a person who really, really wants to be an airline pilot, but is incapable of qualfying. That doesn't mean I would agree to them getting into the cockpit and trying to fly a fully loaded airliner.

 

[Pixel42]

I have great sympathy and compassion for anorexics. I don't think it's wise to encourage them to join weightwatcher clubs, or take weight control drugs.

 

[Rolfe]

The transwomen know their own genitals.

So no compassion then.

If a person dressed as a woman goes into a male facility, you don't think they're in danger in any way?

The "transwomen" may know their own genitals, but we don't. All other considerations apart, any ruling that permits one group of men to use women's spaces inevitably permits any man at all to use women's spaces. He can't even be challenged.

No, I don't think a man dressed as a woman is in any particular danger in a male facility. Unless you count being stared at as a danger. If men are allowed to go into women's facilities any time they like, do you think this increases the danger to women?

 

[Rolfe]

Discrimination? Do tell? Quotes of her saying something discriminatory, please. (I won't ask you to demonstrate "hate", because we all know by now that you class all disagreement with your extreme men's rights position as hate.)

What about the discrimination you favour against Moslem women, who are not permitted to use mixed-sex sanitary facilities, and in particular cannot perform the obligatory prayers if they can't access single-sex washing facilities?

Quotes of JKR's own words saying something discriminatory, please.

Also comment on the discrimination you want to enact against Moslem women, @acbytesla.

 

[Rolfe]

You're changing the subject because you know you're wrong.

Back to your implied point. How is anyone else supposed to know whether any particular man in the Ladies room has had genital surgery or not? Dressed, they look exactly like any other man in similar clothes.

Men can't tell either.

 

[Rolfe]

In the future when quoting me, I'll thank you not to delete all my words and insert someone else's. It's actually less work for you too.

I don't see anywhere where he did that. On the contrary, he quoted parts of your post and then explained why you were wrong. As indeed I did myself. You have ignored both of us.

ETA: I see now that a post by @acbytesla was mistakenly attributed to you. Didn't you realise that was what happened when you were getting on your high horse?

 

[zooterkin]

I don't see anywhere where he did that. On the contrary, he quoted parts of your post and then explained why you were wrong. As indeed I did myself. You have ignored both of us.

Actually, acbytesla's words were attributed to Thermal.

 

[zooterkin]

So what? These people for some reason or another see themselves differently than you do. That you want to dismiss that and them is hardly justified.

So what? Well, first of all, you were quoting figures in support of your position that were two orders of magnitude out. That's aside from the fact that they don't actually support your position at all; as I and others have pointed out, intersex conditions are completely unrelated to being trans.

And I'm not dismissing anyone, I'm dismissing your argument, which is a completely different thing.

 

[smartcooky]

This is worth watching.
Its a fascinating interview, Helen Joyce being interviewed Sunil Sharma on "Rational Voices". Its 1 hour 23 minutes long, and if you have a genuinely open mind on this issue, its worth every minute.


Here is a series of bookmarks for each chapter
00:00 The Supreme Court Ruling and Its Impact
11:31 Helen Joyce's Journey to Activism
22:10 The Challenges of Speaking Out
39:15 The Detransition Conversation
45:13 The Challenges of Reporting on Detransitioners
50:52 The Consequences of Medical Decisions
57:20 The Complexity of Accountability in Medical Practices
59:51 The Future of Gender Identity Legislation
01:14:12 The Unpopular Truths About Sex Differences

 

[Rolfe]

Transwomen who've had surgery know they've had surgery, and don't have the equipment to need male facilities, and many of them fear using male spaces because they dress as women.

WE don't know that they've had surgery. And neither do men. Men's toilets have cubicles. All they have to do is use a cubicle and leave, same way as anyone else, however they're dressed.

Most of the men who dress as women have intact male genitals, and most of them have no intention of changing that. You seem to be favouring any man "dressed as a woman" being legally permitted to use women's facilities. Because how is anyone supposed to tell the difference?

Then there's the question of what "dressed as a woman" means. Jeans, trainers, t-shirt and hoodie? Because that's my normal attire. It's absolutely unarguable that any regulations which permit a particular subset of men to use women's facilities in fact permit any man at all to use them, because any man who shows up must be presumed to be a member of the permitted subset.

Many many trans-identifying men are extremely nasty pieces of work, as we have just seen. I have no idea which of them have had surgery and which haven't, and I have no way to tell. But also, any pervert predator at all is perfectly capable of "dressing as a woman" and again I have no way to tell whether this is his normal "identity" or just something put on for the purpose of getting into women's facilities. Just as I have no way to tell whether or not he still has his dangly bits.

But finally, even if there were some alchemy by which only men who have had their bits chopped off could enter women's facilities, this is still a violation. They are male. They look and sound male. The facility is now mixed sex. Moslem women can't use it. Women who are traumatised by the proximity of men in their intimate spaces can't use it.

So please stop bleating about compassion and think about the practicalities of what you're proposing.

 

[Rolfe]

This is worth watching.
Its a fascinating interview, Helen Joyce being interviewed Sunil Sharma on "Rational Voices". Its 1 hour 23 minutes long, and if you have a genuinely open mind on this issue, its worth every minute.


Here is a series of bookmarks for each chapter
00:00 The Supreme Court Ruling and Its Impact
11:31 Helen Joyce's Journey to Activism
22:10 The Challenges of Speaking Out
39:15 The Detransition Conversation
45:13 The Challenges of Reporting on Detransitioners
50:52 The Consequences of Medical Decisions
57:20 The Complexity of Accountability in Medical Practices
59:51 The Future of Gender Identity Legislation
01:14:12 The Unpopular Truths About Sex Differences

I've been listening to that in stages. She is remarkably clear-minded and has a rare ability to cut to the centre of any question and answer it directly, without becoming side-tracked by how it is framed.

 

[Rolfe]

Actually, acbytesla's words were attributed to Thermal.

Thanks, I see that now.

 

[Rolfe]

Just to have a poke at this again...

You will struggle to find a better, more clear, or more unequivocal demonstration, that Trans-Rights Activists are EXACTLY the types of people that you, and @Emily's Cat have been saying they are... violent, threatening, scummy people who vandalised a memorial to Millicent Fawcett, one of Britain's greatest women's rights campaigners, with speakers inciting violence against women, and, of all things, to hold a mass urination on the ground at Parliament Square.

That demonstration showed that you and other women like you, have every right to be afraid of these people. They are a thoroughly nasty lot.

I wonder if most people in this thread realise that this is what women trying to have any sort of meeting to discuss women's rights, whether indoors or outdoors, have to put up with all the time? Not such a large group, certainly, but absolutely this. Plus loudhailers and banging pots and pans to drown out women speakers.

The very first such meeting I went to in Edinburgh had the venue kept secret till the last minute - I just had time to get there after receiving the email. Even so, a fair sized mob had assembled there and kept up a horrendous cacophony throughout the proceedings. Fortunately the layout of the building meant that we could still hear the speakers (although I think the people living in the surrounding flats must have been deafened), but some very harrowing stories were told against that frenzied banging.

After the event the trans activists mounted a campaign to pressurise anyone with a booking for the venue to cancel and for nobody to make any new bookings, by vilifying the institute for "promoting hate".

At least nobody was actually assaulted at that meeting. That has happened at other events though, with frightened women having to be escorted out of back entrances as a howling mob besieged the front.

Most vulnerable community on the planet, my eye.

 

[Rolfe]

WE don't know that they've had surgery. And neither do men. Men's toilets have cubicles. All they have to do is use a cubicle and leave, same way as anyone else, however they're dressed.

Most of the men who dress as women have intact male genitals, and most of them have no intention of changing that. You seem to be favouring any man "dressed as a woman" being legally permitted to use women's facilities. Because how is anyone supposed to tell the difference?

Then there's the question of what "dressed as a woman" means. Jeans, trainers, t-shirt and hoodie? Because that's my normal attire. It's absolutely unarguable that any regulations which permit a particular subset of men to use women's facilities in fact permit any man at all to use them, because any man who shows up must be presumed to be a member of the permitted subset.

Many many trans-identifying men are extremely nasty pieces of work, as we have just seen. I have no idea which of them have had surgery and which haven't, and I have no way to tell. But also, any pervert predator at all is perfectly capable of "dressing as a woman" and again I have no way to tell whether this is his normal "identity" or just something put on for the purpose of getting into women's facilities. Just as I have no way to tell whether or not he still has his dangly bits.

But finally, even if there were some alchemy by which only men who have had their bits chopped off could enter women's facilities, this is still a violation. They are male. They look and sound male. The facility is now mixed sex. Moslem women can't use it. Women who are traumatised by the proximity of men in their intimate spaces can't use it.

So please stop bleating about compassion and think about the practicalities of what you're proposing.

Here's Helen saying the same thing, only shorter and better.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1914250802622824455

 

[Ziggurat]

"Trans panic" isn't even a thing.

No, it's real. He's experiencing it. Trans panic is the fear that transpeople are under existential threat. They aren't, of course, but the fear he experiences is still quite real.

 

[Ziggurat]

Transwomen who've had surgery know they've had surgery, and don't have the equipment to need male facilities, and many of them fear using male spaces because they dress as women.

Transwomen fear the presence of males when they are in a vulnerable condition? I wonder if women fear that too....

 

[Rolfe]

Since @acbytesla can't find it, here's Joanne Rowling's original tweet that sparked off the tsunami of hate against her as a transphobe.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1207646162813100033

There is also a very thoughtful article explaining her position in detail. You won't find a word of hate in it.

J.K. Rowling Writes about Her Reasons for Speaking out on Sex and Gender Issues - J.K. Rowling

Warning: The below content is not appropriate for children. Please check with an adult before you read this page. To go back to the children’s page, please click here. This isn’t an easy piece to write, for reasons that will shortly become clear, but I know it’s time to explain myself on an...

www.jkrowling.com

Recently she has become quite sarky though.