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Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

I am male. I want other males to be treated the same way that I am treated. What is unequal about that?
Some males are kinda not like all the other males. You might say a male can stand on his own two feet too, but that doesn't make a paraplegic male feel real hot.
I'm not very concerned with what "feels" wrong. I'm concerned about what actually is wrong. If a female's intimate space is being invaded by a male against her will, and the power of the state is being used against that female for objecting, that looks a lot more like oppression than if the state takes her side in preventing that invasion
It's this whole concept of a multi occupant rest room as being some enshrined sacred space that is at issue. I'm not sure it is, at least not in the majority of circumstances.
 
Some males are kinda not like all the other males.
Maybe. But treating them the same still isn't an inequality. If it's wrong to treat them the same, that wrong is something other than an inequality. And note, there are absolutely other wrongs in the world besides inequality, and you can try to argue that what the trans skeptics here are arguing for is somehow one of these other wrongs. But what we are NOT doing is arguing for inequality. That accusation is simply false, as a factual matter.
It's this whole concept of a multi occupant rest room as being some enshrined sacred space that is at issue.
Well, no, it's really not. The TRA's don't want to abolish multi-occupant restrooms and move to single-occupancy only. Nor do they want to abolish sex segregation in restrooms. That's not what they're asking for. The debate would probably look a lot different if they were.
 
Suppose someone (let's call her "Sall") wants to start a club where females can connect to each other for either romantic or platonic purposes. Now suppose a transwoman (let's call her "Roxanne") sues Sall's club, arguing that she, too, should be entitled to join since she is a woman and would like to connect to other women for romantic and/or platonic purposes. Should the government side with Sall because it's okay for females to set their own boundaries or with Roxanne because it's discriminatory to exclude women who were born male?

Since you're not one of us "true believers" it would be interesting to hear your take on a case like this.
Why not just ask the fundamental question, which is: Should the owners of an establishment be able to refuse a person entry or membership for any reason? Do they have to give a reason at all?

What might be the harm from allowing fear and hatred to fester in a society based on some real but mostly imagined bogeymen with particular characteristics?
 
What a superb argument. I have entirely revised my opinion. (Not.)

@acbytesla, I note that this issue is plastered across every front page in Britain this morning. The most straightforwardly informative was the Daily Telegraph.
View attachment 60139
I would like to have seen at least one paper go with ..

Supreme Court Rules Water is Wet
 
Why not just ask the fundamental question, which is: Should the owners of an establishment be able to refuse a person entry or membership for any reason?
Because I asked a question more directly on topic than that one.

Do you think it would be a fair exchange if I offered to answer your (three) questions in exchange for a straight answer to mine?
 
Because I asked a question more directly on topic than that one.

Do you think it would be a fair exchange if I offered to answer your (three) questions in exchange for a straight answer to mine?
Should the owners of an establishment be able to refuse a person entry or membership for any reason?

No, including the hypothetical Sall.

Do they have to give a reason at all?

Yes. And it better be a good one, such as the person was considered likely to be a danger to him or herself, other people or property in the establishment.
 
Why not just ask the fundamental question, which is: Should the owners of an establishment be able to refuse a person entry or membership for any reason? Do they have to give a reason at all?

What might be the harm from allowing fear and hatred to fester in a society based on some real but mostly imagined bogeymen with particular characteristics?
Sounds to me like you're arguing for doing away with sex segregation entirely. Is that your position?
 
Two points I was mulling over - a bearded man with bulging biceps, shaved head and all the signifiers of a very "brutish" style of masculinity could "now" enter a women's toilet and loiter around and if challenged say "I'm a trans man". How are the women users of that toilet going to know if that is the case or not? Considering that one of the objections to trans women using the women's toilet was that it allowed male predators to simply say "I'm a trans woman" and enter, now they can still lie and say "I'm a trans man".
Nope. That's not how it works...he could say "I'm a helicopter", but he is still a biological male so he can be told to leave.
The second point is that the new ruling may mean that more establishments will have to switch over to unisex toilets, such as many small businesses already have so that they are not discriminating based on gender reassignment. It will be interesting to see the court cases over the next few years as this all again has to get legislated.
And this is a problem because?

Actually a third point just came to me seeing some media comments - this is a narrow judgment, it only refers to the wording in the Equality act, this doesn't settle how courts determine what a woman or man is in other legislation, that would still be up to legal challenges.
Nope. After this ruling, there is nothing to litigate. No court would be allowed to conclude anything that conflicts with the EA - if one did, it would immediately be appealed.
 
Should the owners of an establishment be able to refuse a person entry or membership for any reason?

No, including the hypothetical Sall.

Do they have to give a reason at all?

Yes. And it better be a good one, such as the person was considered likely to be a danger to him or herself, other people or property in the establishment.
Hm. In my US state, service can be refused by management to anyone. What they can't do is refuse service based on being a member if a protected class. So a Bartender can bounce you because he thinks you are too drunk, but not because you are trans.
 
Hm. In my US state, service can be refused by management to anyone. What they can't do is refuse service based on being a member if a protected class. So a Bartender can bounce you because he thinks you are too drunk, but not because you are trans.
That an incomplete answer to a different question (what can they do), not the question asked (what should they be able to do).
 
Hm. In my US state, service can be refused by management to anyone. What they can't do is refuse service based on being a member if a protected class. So a Bartender can bounce you because he thinks you aretoo drunk, but not because you are trans.
Or presumably because he just doesn't like the look of you?
 
Where it can be easily done and is a win for everybody, then yes.
That's a copout. Nobody cares about the cases where doing away with sex segregation is a win for everyone, we've basically done that already. We care about the cases where doing away with it is a win for some but not others. So in those cases, are you still in favor of eliminating sex segregation?
 
That an incomplete answer to a different question (what can they do), not the question asked (what should they be able to do).
*Should* they? Of course. No one is obligated to submit to the will of random strangers on their private property.
 
And this is a problem because?

It's not a problem at all, because nobody is going to be discriminating on gender reassignment as regards toilet provision. It's not even possible. It has been made crystal clear in the judgement that people go men's or women's depending on their actual sex. Gender reassignment doesn't come into it. There will be no court cases "legislating" about this, because it is already a done deal. It has been established that requiring males to use the men's and females to use the women's is not discrimination.

There is no requirement to provide separate male and female facilities, but in practice that really just applies to very small businesses, which may only have one toilet to do everyone, single-occupancy with all facilities behind a lockable door. If they have two of these which were labelled male and female they may opt to make them both unisex but that would be no big deal.

The issue is large establishments with the usual separate Ladies and Gents with communal washing areas, with the Gents communal area also containing urinals. These usually also have a disabled-equipped unisex toilet. There is no reason at all why these should not continue as they are, and maybe turn a blind eye to non-disabled trans people using the disabled space. I suspect that's what will happen. We have seen some very woke establishents change the signage on their regular toilets to curry favour with the trans lobby, and this has caused much disquiet. The Donmar Warehouse and the Mermaid Theatre spring to mind. Since this seems to involve leaving the Gents as it is and relabelling the Ladies as being for everyone, I would have thought a claim of sex discrimination would be appropriate. Up to the clientele I suppose, but we may see that happen.

What I do not expect to happen is for many other establishments now to try to change their normal toilets to mixed-sex. The tide is most definitely turning and women are getting tired of it all. If an establishment labels its former Ladies as mixed-sex and leaves the Gents as men-only, that's a definite case of sex discrimination I would have thought. If they simply label both as mixed-sex, ditto. Women are going to say that they are de facto prevented from using a space where men are using urinals, for reasons of decency and propriety, therefore they are being treated less favourably than men. If any litigation happens I would expect it to be around this point.

If the establishment tears out the urinals so that it has two cubicle-only mixed-sex spaces the men will be furious, and furious men tend to be listened to. Only the most terminally woke establishments are even going to contemplate pissing off the bulk of their clientele like this. Remodelling the Gents to get rid of the urinals and attracting the ire of pretty much everybody is unlikely to be a popular suggestion. Trans is on the wane anyway. The younger generations growing up think it's a load of performative bollocks, and now that a declaration that one is trans doesn't give a man an all-access pass to women's single-sex spaces I predict it's likely to get significantly less popular as a lifestyle.

Another area that may arise in terms of legal action is where a male enters the female space and refuses to leave when requested. I think that might throw up some interesting scenarios, and that's the space I'd be watching. But nobody, nobody at all, is risking "discrimination based on gender reassignment" by leaving their toilets as male and female, and being prepared to enforce this if necessary.
 
Or presumably because he just doesn't like the look of you?
That's why it's left open-ended. You ever been in a bar when a homeless person tried to come in? Regardless of race, creed or color, that person is getting hustled out the door by the bartender (there's even a term for it: the bum's rush).
 
Dumb are the laws. Dumb is the hate. Dumb is the idea that any of this makes a better world.

Bathrooms are segregated by the people going into them. Women's bathrooms in particular allow for more privacy then Men's stalls. Creating laws doesn't prevent Trans individuals from going into Women's bathrooms. It just criminalizes a human biological function.
Why do you avoid answering a direct question? All you did was tap-dance around it. This suggests that you understand the contradiction, you just don't give a ◊◊◊◊ about the impact on females - all you care about is that males get what they want.
 

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