Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Rolfe]

Read the room, man.

Begging the question that the video has merit.

Did you watch it? What arguments or reasonings really connected for you? Did the video lead you to any conclusions? If so, what conclusions?

"Watch this video, see what you think" is something to say to a bored spouse on a Tuesday night.

It's asinine. I couldn't get through it. A shrill-voiced, scolding woman talking over someone who was tentatively trying to make a point but was never allowed to finish a sentence. She insisted that only her perspective could be accepted, and any attempt to articulate something else was shouted down. I have no idea what the point was supposed to be.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

 

[Rolfe]

Don't be so stupid.

 

[smartcooky]

Don't be so stupid.

Yup. Stupid is as stupid does!

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Do you think there may be a chance that by page 136 of part 15 of this thread a smidgeon or more of groupthink may have occurred?

No? I didn't think so.

 

[Rolfe]

Why do you want to pee in the Ladies, Ivor?

 

[acbytesla]

You're making the exact same arguments that male chauvinists made about women's liberation in the 1960s and 1970s "these women are just man-haters". I lived through that period... I may have been young, but not too young to understand what Germaine Greer and Elaine Morgan were arguing, nor was I unable to see and understand how arse-holes like Normal Mailer tried to pillory them.


FTFY.

Ask the women who have fought for this whether it has made it a better world for them.


Errm, what? Are you arguing Schrödinger's bathrooms now?


Oh Poppycock! Utter drivel. You really have no ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ idea do you?

Its not just about bathrooms, its about ALL sex-segregated spaces (unless you think refuges for battered women and woman rape victims ought to be a free-for-all for men as well?

The hate is strong with this one.

 

[Aber]

Decency, modesty, propriety. That's why?

The Supreme Court decided:

(that might be essential for religious reasons or desirable for the protection of a woman’s safety, or the autonomy or privacy and dignity of the two sexes)

 

[d4m10n]

Do you think there may be a chance that by page 136 of part 15 of this thread a smidgeon or more of groupthink may have occurred?

It has, but perhaps not in the way that you would expect. What actually happened is that a handful of people—the sort who ordinarily expect to be able to dominate and shut down such conversations as this with relative ease, merely by tossing off a few key phrases demonizing their interlocutors as irrationally hateful and/or phobic—flounced from the discussion quite a while back, complaining that their tactic of going after character rather than picking apart arguments didn't work as expected.

Thankfully, though, @acbytesla is here to give it another go.

 

[Hercules56]

Dumb are the laws. Dumb is the hate. Dumb is the idea that any of this makes a better world.

Bathrooms are segregated by the people going into them. Women's bathrooms in particular allow for more privacy then Men's stalls. Creating laws doesn't prevent Trans individuals from going into Women's bathrooms. It just criminalizes a human biological function.

Its now illegal for transvolk to pee?

 

[zooterkin]

Its now illegal for transvolk to pee?

You might think so, based on the reported comments of Lady Falkner. I'm assuming she misspoke, and meant trans women rather than trans people.

On the risk that trans people will no longer be able to use facilities designed for either male or female, she added that trans rights organisations should push for more neutral third spaces. “But I think the law is quite clear that if a service provider says we’re offering a women’s toilet, that trans people should not be using that single-sex facility.”

New rules for public bodies expected ‘by summer’ after UK gender ruling

Equalities watchdog chair says code of practice will give clarity and adds trans people’s rights ‘must be respected’

www.theguardian.com

 

[Hercules56]

You might think so, based on the reported comments of Lady Falkner. I'm assuming she misspoke, and meant trans women rather than trans people.

New rules for public bodies expected ‘by summer’ after UK gender ruling

Equalities watchdog chair says code of practice will give clarity and adds trans people’s rights ‘must be respected’

www.theguardian.com

I assume transwomen in the UK can use the men's room to pee.

 

[Pixel42]

I assume transwomen in the UK can use the men's room to pee.

They always could, of course, even those who thought they also had the legal right to use the ladies.

Now they only have one option, like the other 99% of the population.

 

[zooterkin]

I assume transwomen in the UK can use the men's room to pee.

Well, yes, but what she actually said ruled that out, as well trans men using the women's room.

 

[Hercules56]

Well, yes, but what she actually said ruled that out, as well trans men using the women's room.

Men and women can still use the appropriate bathroom based on their sex. Regardless of how they dress.

A male in a dress can still use the men's room.

 

[Mashuna]

Men and women can still use the appropriate bathroom based on their sex. Regardless of how they dress.

A male in a dress can still use the men's room.

Yes - however the use of the phrase 'trans people' - " if a service provider says we’re offering a women’s toilet, that trans people should not be using that" is incorrect. Trans men should of course be able to use the women's toilet. I assume that's the point zooterkin was making.

 

[Elaedith]

If some people feel they cannot reasonably be expected to use facilities that match their biological sex, and activists had put forward a case on behalf of such people and allowed discussion and debate to work out a solution that doesn't infringe on the rights of other groups or require people to adopt unscientific beliefs, there would probably be other options available already.

 

[Rolfe]

I assume transwomen in the UK can use the men's room to pee.

Of course they can. They always could. It's also noteworthy that while we could give chapter and verse of multiple examples of trans-identifying males assaulting women in the women's bathrooms when asked (it's just that the numbers cited were deemed insufficient), the poster who said that trans-identifying men were being "habitually beaten and harrassed" in the men's room was unable to give a single example. It isn't a thing. They might be stared at, even laughed at, but they're not going to be beaten up.

This is why I find it much more helpful to concentrate on the "autonomy, privacy and dignity" part of keeping men out of women's spaces. If I see a man in the women's bathroom or changing room I'm not generally afraid that he's going to attack me, I'm disgusted.

My impression of what Lady Faulkener said is that she was taking at face value the TRA's insistence that they couldn't possibly, never, no way, use the correct bathroom, and not appreciating that this is pure theatre. They legally can, of course, and if they don't want to, then they can find another solution.

 

[varwoche]

@acbytesla Genuine serious question for you:

If females do not need or merit single sex spaces for the reason of modesty, or dignity, or safety... then why exactly do some males need access to spaces that exclude other males? For what reason do you think transgender identified males should be given a space that excludes males that are not transgender identified?

But answer there came none.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Why do you want to pee in the Ladies, Ivor?

I have no desire to pee in the "Ladies". I proposed (and have seen implemented in many places) a safe, fair and workable solution to dealing with human excrement in public spaces without the need to segregate based on sex, gender, sexuality, eye colour, race, clan, etc.

The UK court made the right decision: biological sex trumps the delusions of a tiny minority.